Right or Privilege?

[Liberty97045]

That's a negative. 6 states make up New England. It's a specific region.

You missed the point.

I am originally from NH and even in the 70s we had a distane for those on our southern border, particularly Taxachusetts.

Some people in the three northernmost states (Maine, NH & VT) regard themselves as the "real" New England.

 

[SheepDog223]

Most of us are living in a fantasy world. Regardless of what we want. Regardless of what were told. There is no such thing as a right. The right to bear arms? Exfellons who have paid their debt to society Dont have the "right" to own a firearm. The mentally I'll Dont have the right. Children Dont have the right. If its something your born with why can't a child access it? Right to persue life liberty and happiness? Yet we vaccume out the unborn. There is no right to life or guns or water or air. You have no rights. Its just a game and we complain about the rules in like company and submit unhappily yet obediently on the street. Rights can not be taken away. Privliges can.
Go enjoy your privligas while you still can.

 

[NSDQ]

Call me bubbleguming crazy but I always subscribed to Robert A. Heinlein's philosophy. Anything given freely has no value. If you have to earn the right for things they retain their personal importance. Previous generations had their freedom threatened and therefore hold onto certain inalienable rights. But in this modern world I subscribe to the idea that we should have to earn that right. Through military service, public service, and or civil service. Much like how in other countries conscription, public service are mandatory.

Think Starship troopers. You aren't a citizen until service.

Imagine a world where those only allowed to vote are those who swore to protect the very institution in the first place. Not by those with the most income.

 

[NSDQ]

My personal opinion, which is apparently not universally shared, is that every gun owner who believes that there should be more gun control, or even that current gun control should not be rolled back, is a flaming hypocrite. They are obviously somewhat unstable, and should forfeit their firearms.

Furthermore, I have to suspect the motives of supposedly NRA members who support background checks on private sales or "transfers".

Maybe thats because you've never confiscated weapons from felons who obtained there firearms through private transfers from shady and sketchy straw dealers.

You might argue and say that criminals will still obtain them. Yes this is true but now when firearms are confiscated they can link them back to the private sale. Thus holding the countless straw sellers who know perfectly well the buyers are criminals but choose not to even check ID. A background check makes sense.

Gun owners are hypocrites in many ways to me. How is it acceptable for us to obtain a CCW with a background check but not acceptable for that to be a requirement to obtain a firearm?

 

[Heywood]

Gun owners are hypocrites in many ways to me. How is it acceptable for us to obtain a CCW with a background check but not acceptable for that to be a requirement to obtain a firearm?

Are you really trying to say that gun owners made those stupid laws about needing permission from the government to exorcise a right specifically put in place to keep said gov. In check?

 

[Heywood]

Call me bubbleguming crazy but I always subscribed to Robert A. Heinlein's philosophy. Anything given freely has no value. If you have to earn the right for things they retain their personal importance. Previous generations had their freedom threatened and therefore hold onto certain inalienable rights. But in this modern world I subscribe to the idea that we should have to earn that right. Through military service, public service, and or civil service. Much like how in other countries conscription, public service are mandatory.

Think Starship troopers. You aren't a citizen until service.

Imagine a world where those only allowed to vote are those who swore to protect the very institution in the first place. Not by those with the most income.

You're bubbleguming crazy!
Your life was given to you freely, does it hold no value?
As are your rights, they are yours they are not to be "given" by anyone, that is the ENTIRE meaning of the bill of rights. Those rights are yours at birth. Which, unfortunately for you, means they can not be taken by anyone either.
Your belief in a government that would bestow rights for certain services and would also not in so doing, garner unending support and loyalty from its "citizens" is...cute.
That is exactly how colonial empires kept locals under their thumb. Work for us and you will be in a higher station than your peers, if you ever screw up though I will cast you back to the station you came from, and the rest of the pleebs will remember and resent you... Is that what you imagine? history ain't as purty as a comic book.

 

[decklin]

Gun owners are hypocrites in many ways to me. How is it acceptable for us to obtain a CCW with a background check but not acceptable for that to be a requirement to obtain a firearm?

It's not. That crap was forced on us. You shouldn't need a permission slip to exercise a Right. You don't pay for any other Right.

 

[slimmer13]

Maybe thats because you've never confiscated weapons from felons who obtained there firearms through private transfers from shady and sketchy straw dealers

How many exactly have you confiscated?

Since straw purchases are already illegal, how many were prosecuted exactly?

Were they convicted?

What were their sentences?

 

[RB87]

Call me bubbleguming crazy but I always subscribed to Robert A. Heinlein's philosophy. Anything given freely has no value. If you have to earn the right for things they retain their personal importance. Previous generations had their freedom threatened and therefore hold onto certain inalienable rights. But in this modern world I subscribe to the idea that we should have to earn that right. Through military service, public service, and or civil service. Much like how in other countries conscription, public service are mandatory.

Think Starship troopers. You aren't a citizen until service.

Imagine a world where those only allowed to vote are those who swore to protect the very institution in the first place. Not by those with the most income.

I'll buy into Heinlein's theory the day income tax and property taxes are made unconstitutional and their very proposal by a legislator/government official considered an act of treason with penalty of death.

 

[RB87]

Maybe thats because you've never confiscated weapons from felons who obtained there firearms through private transfers from shady and sketchy straw dealers.

Given how many government officials have lost their service weapons in just the last ten years, this is not a strong argument on your part. The most recent famous example being the SF illegal alien alleged murderer who supposedly just found a gun that belonged to a fed agent. About 3-4 years ago a OSP detective lost their gun in a hospital bathroom. They weren't even named.

What happened to the citizen who lost his pistol in the movie theater out on the coast a couple of years ago? Why I do believe they arrested him and thus named him even though the gun was found the next day and he'd tried to get it back the night before. Have we ever gotten a report on that lost glock from the Portland hospital?

 

[NSDQ]

How many exactly have you confiscated?

Since straw purchases are already illegal, how many were prosecuted exactly?

Were they convicted?

What were their sentences?

We confiscated 7 guns from 4 different felons. All 7 guns linked to 2 sellers. The 2 sellers ran an illegal at home gun store. The "dealers" had records that indicated they had sold over 60 guns and further investigations reveled that they had sold over 41 guns to individuals with criminal backgrounds. Unfortunately the burden of poof was on the city to prove that they KNEW that the individuals were felons. With the recent law changes - this will prevent this from being conducted legally. Now when dealers are traced back they go to jail.

 

[NSDQ]

You're bubbleguming crazy!
Your life was given to you freely, does it hold no value?
As are your rights, they are yours they are not to be "given" by anyone, that is the ENTIRE meaning of the bill of rights. Those rights are yours at birth. Which, unfortunately for you, means they can not be taken by anyone either.
Your belief in a government that would bestow rights for certain services and would also not in so doing, garner unending support and loyalty from its "citizens" is...cute.
That is exactly how colonial empires kept locals under their thumb. Work for us and you will be in a higher station than your peers, if you ever screw up though I will cast you back to the station you came from, and the rest of the pleebs will remember and resent you... Is that what you imagine? history ain't as purty as a comic book.

Again you seem to fail to indicate your understanding of history. Heinlein's articles appeared in the saturday evening post, the same publication that Benjamin Franklin once wrote in. Hardly a comic book. Hugo award winning novels that join the ranks of Asimov and Clarke.

History is littered with examples of class based citizenship. I'm simply indicating that anything given has no value. America's inalienable rights handed down by Lockean philosophy sound great on a founding new nation. Locke failed to see that history is also littered with examples of free peoples who lost their rights due to their inability to see how important they were in the first place.

But I fail to see how individuals raised in the current American lifestyle will ever see the value of the rights under the natural laws unless they either sacrificed to protect the society thereby going through struggle to understand. You have to be connected in some way to the potential of rights lost. We have gone into a regression where rights have very little meaning to the body populace.

Most astounding thing in my experience in Iraq was when the Iraqi's had a chance to vote after being under the Saddam regime. A man was shot in the leg after insurgents had threatened people to not participate in voting. He was being prepped for medevac but refused to be sent off until he finished voting. Iraqi people lined up for miles some even trekked 30-40 miles by any means to get to Baghdad to participate. Yet in the United States the national voting record is under 30 percent. Again back to my example things given freely have no value unless there has been a recent struggle to protect or defend said rights.

 

[slimmer13]

We confiscated 7 guns from 4 different felons. All 7 guns linked to 2 sellers. The 2 sellers ran an illegal at home gun store. The "dealers" had records that indicated they had sold over 60 guns and further investigations reveled that they had sold over 41 guns to individuals with criminal backgrounds. Unfortunately the burden of poof was on the city to prove that they KNEW that the individuals were felons. With the recent law changes - this will prevent this from being conducted legally. Now when dealers are traced back they go to jail.

Lol pesky burden of proof.

Sounds like shoddy/lazy police work. Do your job and leave me alone

 

[decklin]

We confiscated 7 guns from 4 different felons. All 7 guns linked to 2 sellers. The 2 sellers ran an illegal at home gun store. The "dealers" had records that indicated they had sold over 60 guns and further investigations reveled that they had sold over 41 guns to individuals with criminal backgrounds. Unfortunately the burden of poof was on the city to prove that they KNEW that the individuals were felons. With the recent law changes - this will prevent this from being conducted legally. Now when dealers are traced back they go to jail.

What are the names? Case numbers? What agency do you work for?
This is all verifiable via FOIA. Until then....

 

[Heywood]

Again you seem to fail to indicate your understanding of history. Heinlein's articles appeared in the saturday evening post, the same publication that Benjamin Franklin once wrote in. Hardly a comic book. Hugo award winning novels that join the ranks of Asimov and Clarke.

History is littered with examples of class based citizenship. I'm simply indicating that anything given has no value. America's inalienable rights handed down by Lockean philosophy sound great on a founding new nation. Locke failed to see that history is also littered with examples of free peoples who lost their rights due to their inability to see how important they were in the first place.

But I fail to see how individuals raised in the current American lifestyle will ever see the value of the rights under the natural laws unless they either sacrificed to protect the society thereby going through struggle to understand. You have to be connected in some way to the potential of rights lost. We have gone into a regression where rights have very little meaning to the body populace.

Most astounding thing in my experience in Iraq was when the Iraqi's had a chance to vote after being under the Saddam regime. A man was shot in the leg after insurgents had threatened people to not participate in voting. He was being prepped for medevac but refused to be sent off until he finished voting. Iraqi people lined up for miles some even trekked 30-40 miles by any means to get to Baghdad to participate. Yet in the United States the national voting record is under 30 percent. Again back to my example things given freely have no value unless there has been a recent struggle to protect or defend said rights.

I was referring to your starship troopers coment as It first appeared in a fantasy magazine. Yes, it was re written as a great book, however, basing your political philosophy on a piece of science fiction where that worlds history is itself based on fantasy, is crazy. It seams you actually "fail to indicate your understanding of history" what ever the hell that means.

Yes history is littered with examples of class based citizenship, and it was a terrible existence for all but the political elite, (including the American south) which you don't seem to agree with for some reason. I think it has something to do with believing you will be/are one? (Yes I get that from all your posts,you fancy yourself an elitist). I fail to find even one society of free people "loosing their rights" because they just wouldn't serve their government. I can only assume you do as well because if you knew of them, you would have loved the chance to show us your knowledge.

You fail to see how individuals raised in our current environment have a connection to their rights. I am 100%positive it is not from lack of serving their government. But caused by the very government that is not serving them. Americans are sadly uneducated, especially on American and world history. Most believe that the world has always been the way it is, or that it wasn't really all that bad "back then". Public education at its best.
What I fail to understand is how you come to the conclusion that more government drones will make this a better place.
If you believe the government is not heading in a bad direction and that creating millions of people dependent on the government for a paycheck whom will be benevolent to their peers in a bad situation. You should write your own fantasy novel. Or just read a little more history.

 

[Heywood]

We confiscated 7 guns from 4 different felons. All 7 guns linked to 2 sellers. The 2 sellers ran an illegal at home gun store. The "dealers" had records that indicated they had sold over 60 guns and further investigations reveled that they had sold over 41 guns to individuals with criminal backgrounds. Unfortunately the burden of poof was on the city to prove that they KNEW that the individuals were felons. With the recent law changes - this will prevent this from being conducted legally. Now when dealers are traced back they go to jail.

Sounds like a miniature fast and furious. But hey, they weren't working for their government like all citizens should, so I can see why it would bother you.

 

[Tbucket]

I love Heinlein, he was a great sci fi writer but that is fantasy and this is reality. NSDQ some of the things you write is so far off that it makes me wonder why you are not back in the military. You definitely seem to have the outlook of a career military man who lives in a different world than most civilians. Relax a little bit and listen to some of these ordinary Americans outlook because it is definitely different than what you are seeing. The rights we where given are specifically given to us from birth and that is the great thing about this nation, the founders wanted this and spelled it out specifically for all to see.

 

[bnsaibum]

Call me bubbleguming crazy but I always subscribed to Robert A. Heinlein's philosophy. Anything given freely has no value. If you have to earn the right for things they retain their personal importance. Previous generations had their freedom threatened and therefore hold onto certain inalienable rights. But in this modern world I subscribe to the idea that we should have to earn that right. Through military service, public service, and or civil service. Much like how in other countries conscription, public service are mandatory.

Think Starship troopers. You aren't a citizen until service.

Imagine a world where those only allowed to vote are those who swore to protect the very institution in the first place. Not by those with the most income.

You seem to be laboring under some misunderstandings. As Heywood pointed out you have your life, bestowed upon you by the virtue of your birth, and you have the right to it. The Right to Life that was mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. I personally think your life is yours to do with as you will, give it away or keep it. Your choice. If you choose to keep it, there are times you must "earn" it by protecting it. Much as the Constitution is supposed to do. Protect our Rights, which are already pre-existing, from undue abrogation. The "earning" then comes from making sure our political representatives do not create "laws" that restrict those Rights.

 

[RW-Ore]

Excellent write up Bnsaibum I am with you.

 

[P7M13]

Here we go again...
This is an old discussion, and when I hear it bandied about at gun shops, I keep my mouth shut. I enjoy it when the lunatic fringe weighs in and smile when I hear the inevitable, "...from my cold, dead hands." If it ever came to that, it depends on your resolve as to whether your hands will be cold and dead.

Whether or not it's a right is based on an interpretation of the Constitution. Currently it's upheld as such, but that may change. That's why the NRA works for us and needs our money.

Ultimately, to say that we are free, and to believe that we have rights, is illusory. What is a right, and what is a privilege can have an evolving definition, as I mentioned above, which by nature can, and already does, exclude classes of individuals.

We are allowed to own, possess and use firearms. I call that a privilege.
It is our duty to exercise that privilege responsibly.
It is also our duty to rise up against and overthrow tyranny. However, since the ink dried on the original, the line of what and who conspires tyranny is a trip down the rabbit hole.

Follow the rules, play nice.
But just like the Marine Rules for a Gunfight, don't follow the rules, don't play nice, and always have a backup plan.
Rights and privileges aside, prudence dictates possessing firearms.