Revocable Living Trust

[OREGON FALER]

So I set up a revocable living trust about a week ago and had it notarized. It has trustor, trustee's and beneficiaries. I think based on what I've read I've got a good line of succession down. My question to you folks is this, or these,

1) Does there need to be a physical address in the trust document anywhere? Mine does not.
2) Do the trustee's need to have signed the document or just be named in the document?
3) should there be specific language regarding NFA items, us codes and what not in the document?
4) I'm wondering what the ATFE looks for the trust to have in it?

 

[Gunner3456]

First, please be aware that the trustor is usually the original trustee. Then you have successor trustees in case the original trustee can't serve. The successor trustees don't need to sign.

There should be a physical address in the beginning.

Everything which will belong to the trust needs to be named. That is usually a separate page labeled "Exhibit A" and referred to in the body of the document. "Exhibit A" can be amended or replaced without amending the trust.

I don't think ATF knows enough to look at much. I've not heard of them rejecting a trust.

Don't forget. A trust, in the same sense as a corporation, is a "person." "It" can own things and doesn't die if the grantor dies. It survives to own its assets.

Therefore, once you form the trust and give out even a single copy, you must never rewrite it in total. If you do, you create a new "person" with the same name as the original person, but a different person who doesn't own the assets of the first trust/person. It's like having two John Smiths living side by side now, but each owning his own "stuff."

If you need to change the trust, you amend the trust, usually with one page, and then have that amendment notarized and put it on top of the trust. "Amendment to the John A. Doe Trust dated ___________________"

>>>> Disclaimer. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know much. But then, neither do a lot of lawyers, LOL. Seriously, get a lawyer to help you and don't listen to me.

 

[dbrislawn]

Would like to share my perspective here after working with ATF over the past 40 months on a little gun trust project I have going for my own law firm and some others around the country. Our local law group has attorneys licensed in WA, OR, ID and AK with colleagues in other firms around the country.

First, it's absolutely true that a valid trust can own firearms, even NFA firearms, there is far more going on here than making it easier to acquire an NFA firearm. With ANY entity, not just a trust, you can apply to ATF directly for a tax stamp and without going through local law enforcement first. But getting this wrong can mean confiscation of firearms at the low end to criminal penalties at the high end. And it may not happen right away... tick tick tick.

Second, a true "gun trust" is related to but by design is very different from a conventional living trust. A gun trust should be specifically designed to acquire and own guns, provide guidance to anyone who can access them, and to administer benefits within the confines of gun law.

Guns carry risks very different from stock certificates or bank accounts, assets which are commonly owned by any trust. A conventional living trust is extremely unlikely to say anything about guns or gun law at all. So the risks of accidentally violating some gun law, under the Gun Control Act Title I (regulating interstate commerce, possession, transfer, etc.) or Title II (National Firearms Act), or state law go way up. The document contains no guidance, no warnings.

Possession and transfer of guns are the concepts that need to be clearly dealt with in a "gun trust" and under gun law. Both are broadly applied when guns are involved... which again creates a kind of invisible risk if not understood in "gunville".

If you do a trust and appoint successor trustees, or appoint beneficiaries for now or later... do they know the gun law that you do? If not, are they going to figure it out if you get sick or you die? Could they commit an "accidental felony" and do you know what these risks are? THAT, my friends, is the telling part of this discussion.

Can you "share" your firearms with others? Do gun owners ever try out somebody else's gun at the range or when out firing somewhere? What are the risks when you do so? Can you lessen such risks or avoid them? The point is that you can get into trouble without ever presenting the firearm or firing it!

Am I making this up? Not according to a number of my own clients and some of their friends who have been stopped and questioned by law enforcement when out and about doing gun stuff in public. If you do not take these things into account, it's the law of unintended consequences.

At the risk of being self-serving, since I am an attorney, I still want to suggest that you be very careful in downloading a generic form that "works" or even getting your legal advice from a gun dealer. It may be the most expensive free advice you ever got. You got a form... that carries hidden dangers that you, the generic trust author or provider, gun dealer or buddy knows little about. Doing the transaction is not the risky part, friends. I guess if it goes wrong you can always hire a competent attorney later to fix it, right?

While providing a form and helping you fill it out is "simple", "easy" and "free" it's also a criminal act in most states for a non-lawyer to do it for other people. That's their problem and they risk their FFL... but YOU are the one who will suffer if they get it wrong. Gun law gone wrong means confiscation of YOUR guns, loss of YOUR freedom. It's anything BUT simple or easy.

We are all adults and each of us can make up our mind about what we think is best.

If you are still with me, here's some illustration. Gun law contains different issues for trusts which requires different drafting. For example, most RLTs allow a trustee to distribute property and terminate the trust for various reasons. A successor trustee who is not knowledgeable about firearms might do so... and commit a transfer crime under the National Firearms Act. Another example would be failing to make certain of trustee status or beneficiary status for certain firearms... which can be both a possession crime and/or a transfer crime under the GCA.

Some think that an NFA transfer approval means that the trust is valid. Gun dealers say "this trust we have here has worked before so we know it's fine". WRONGO. NFA Branch has few Examiners and over 120,000 applications to process or so... I have seen valid trusts kicked back by accident and invalid trusts approved that cross my desk later. All that happened is that it passed a checklist... a cursory review.

Even now, there is little written guidance on using entities for personal possession, beneficial use, transfer of firearms, especially NFA firearms. A small group of us in the industry are working with NFA Branch to improve the NFA Handbook among other things. There are proposed regulations out there for comment now that would change the way things work.

The national debate on gun control puts us under greater scrutiny these days. I am trying to step my gun-owning game up and hope that you are too. We need to be leaders to influence this debate and discussion so we do not lose something precious in the process. Bad facts, like Newtown and Aurora, make bad law.

All the best, friends. Let's keep sharing our thoughts and experiences to help each other do the best we can do.

 

[dbrislawn]

Thanks for offering help; I would like to chime in as I am an attorney and more important a trust and gun trust attorney.

I deal with ATF regularly and in fact have taught nationally with the ATF attorney representing NFA Branch among others at the facility in West Virginia. ATF approves and rejects trusts every day. They see about 10,000 NFA transfer requests or so every month, many of which involve trusts. They reject them for many reasons, most of which can be fixed pretty easily if you know what you are doing. They even reject valid ones from time to time or approve invalid ones from time to time as I have personally witnessed. Getting approved is still a big problem if the trust is not valid... I know of one or two Washington cases where this happened that resulted in cost and worry until they were resolved. I have seen machine guns show up in estates, NFA firearms going from person to person or state to state... all of which came up later and which was "innocent" in that nobody knew it could be a crime.

Now, let me edit the statements made about rewriting all or part of a revocable living trust. Revocable living trusts are almost always designed as "grantor" trusts under Sections 671 - 677 of the Internal Revenue Code. The Grantor creates it, is the trustee, and is the beneficiary, although other trustees and beneficiaries MUST be identifiable from within the document to create a valid trust. Such a trust is really your "alter ego" both pragmatically and from a tax reporting standpoint - it uses the Grantor's social security number if income or loss has to be reported for it.

Now, trust design can vary for cost and other reasons. Successor trustees and remainder or other beneficiaries must be IDENTIFIABLE from within the document, but do not necessarily need to be named to create a valid trust. We do this in our simpler gun trusts to keep cost down, and if ATF misses it and raises a red flag it's easy to resolve. I prefer gun trusts that have more meat on the bones to help ATF, you, and your successor trusts and beneficiaries to enjoy firearms without worry.

It is interesting to note that the National Firearms Act is Chapter 44 Title 26 USC... the Internal Revenue Code. It was originally enacted in 1934 as a tool to go after organized crime for tax evasion on certain gun possession or transfer crimes.

In truth you can amend a revocable living trust in part or rewrite the whole thing, called a "restatement" of trust. It's part of their beauty. A better analogy than the two John Smiths would be fixing up your home. You keep your street address and phone number whether you renovate a room or knock down the house and put up your dream villa on the same site. You as Grantor retained the right to do this, and you retain the name and date of the trust, etc. etc. There is no new "transfer" just a rebuild.

It's confusing for attorneys so I imagine its confusing for everyone!

All the best; I am here to help if I can.

 

[PDXSparky]

Dennis,

I read the information on your website and decided to go with the Bronze level trust because I'm just starting out with my first suppressor. <edit>

Thanks for making things right.

 

[OREGON FALER]

So, regarding Initial trustee's and successor trustee's. My understanding is if a trustor wanted to have the item, (let's say an SBR) available for use to others while trustor is not present then those individuals need to be Initial trustee's and not successor trustees. Considering successor trustee's don't have any powers to act on behalf of the trust until the trustor dies or is incapacitated it would seem a successor trustee would not be able to use or possess the item by his or herself. Furthermore it would seem if a trustor named several initial trustee's they would be able to use, possess the item but would also have trust powers right from the get go and could act on the trust property even while the trustor is still alive and of full mental capacity.

I think I have this right but I obviously am not an attorney.

 

[dbrislawn]

Pretty good undestanding of law. Couple of pointers (I am licensed to practice in WA, OR, AK) and I created GunDocx for attorneys to use in creating custom gun trust solutions.

1. Validity of a trust is set by STATE law, not by ATF or the Feds... and both ATF and I agree on this point. That said, ATF has a checklist, developed by ATF attorneys, to help examiners determine if a trust, LLC or corporation appears to be valid for transfer purposes.

2. For NFA purposes where a trust is concerned... only a Trustee under most state laws has the right of "current" possession. A beneficiary may enjoy, but does NOT have the right of current possession at least under a conservative legal view. If a beneficiary had an NFA item alone, by him or herself, and a Trustee was nearby, the legal position is that while beneficiary has "actual" possession, the trustee retains "constructive" possession. I would NOT push this too far... like, say, being on the other side of town! The other side of the range barrier maybe.

Correct, a "successor trustee" is different than someone serving currently as a Co-trustee or a Special Trustee. Successor means upon disability, death, or some other circumstance like being kept a prisoner in another country.

Attorneys who draft trusts have lots of options and tweaks that can be built into legal documents. Again, you get the knowledge and insight you are wiling to pay for. (My only plug about this and due to pride in my profession and colleagues.

BTW... why not use a corporation or LLC? Lots of reasons, but the main one is that they are NOT designed for casual sharing or for benefits to go to anyone not an employee or officer/director. Consider that I own Starbucks stock... so I am a shareholder, right? Can I go down to Howard's office and make myself comfy, use his stuff, or take a company car? If I do I get arrested. I can use dividends to pay my legal bills I guess.

I talked to ATF all last month and part of this. Entity use by individual firearms owners is still very much a "black art", and there is little written guidance. ATF has a proposed rulemaking out that would do several things. First, define "responsible person". Second, require each responsible person to submit fingerprints, photo, and fill out a form. Third, get rid of CLEO requirement... etc.

Will this do away with need for gun trusts? NO. The issue is possession and transfer... not just avoiding CLEO sign-off.

This area of law is developing as we speak, and the gun control legislation we face will make it more imperative to do things right.

Now... is a 'low cost" trust the BEST or the SMARTEST choice for you? And why would a trust attorney even want to do a "commodity" level trust like I did in creating a basic (Bronze) gun trust? 1. To provide an affordable attorney-backed solution for a segment of the gun community; 2) to provide gun folks with professional representation and meet our "peeps"; 3) to provide an upgrade path as need grows.

We figured that we could do the community a service and be there when needed. Bronze Trust is and was only meant for a guy or gal buying a silencer or two... NOT for a gun enthusiast.

Consider - does your spouse, significant other, or anyone that might have to step in for you if you were sick or passed on, know ANYTHING about possession or transfer of a gun? The truth is that ANY gun can result in an accidental felony if possessed by a prohibited person, transferred to a prohibited person, transferred without complying with the Gun Control Act, a prohibited firearm due to status as contraband or in a state where it is not legal...

See what I mean? We can harm a loved one by accident at a time of great stress for them... our own disability or death, and then we dump a firearm on them with little or no preparation or instruction.

THAT is why my friends and I, estate planners mostly, were horrified to learn that we did NOT ask clients over the last XX decades if they owned a gun, and what they would do with it if there time came. Now we are taking action by learning how this part of the law works, so that we can protect our clients and their families from unintended consequences.

Any choice, to DIY a trust, to use LZ.com, Quicken, a downloaded form or to hire an attorney, will have its pros and cons. This area of law has CRIMINAL CONSEQUENCES, folks, so make a smart decision based on need, want, and budget.

 

[dbrislawn]

Initially we posted a WASHINGTON only gun trust. Somehow the data intake allowed folks from other states to order. Sorry if this created a hassle for you, PDX, or for anyone else.

Now our page has specific buttons for WA, OR, ID to make clear what each trust can do. We are attorneys, not document peddlers, and we can only represent clients in states where we are licensed. I am proud of the fact that we stand for you. Our deal is that when you call us we will be in your corner.

A relationship is about being able to tell someone that something is not right so they can fix it and we can continue a relationship for mutual value. At NWGLG we hope that everyone who works with us will US when something is not right so we can fix it. Likewise, if a service is valued it's nice for folks to tell their friends... word of mouth is how a professional practice is built.

 

[PDXSparky]

Initially we posted a WASHINGTON only gun trust. Somehow the data intake allowed folks from other states to order. Sorry if this created a hassle for you, PDX, or for anyone else.

Now our page has specific buttons for WA, OR, ID to make clear what each trust can do. We are attorneys, not document peddlers, and we can only represent clients in states where we are licensed. I am proud of the fact that we stand for you. Our deal is that when you call us we will be in your corner.

Dennis, thanks for working to make things right. I sent in my paperwork on Friday, so now the l o n g wait begins.

 

[Tron]

What is the web address to be able to purchase your trust creation services? I am looking to place all of my firearms in a trust to allow passage of my guns to my children upon my death. I am concerned new legislation will be passed making legal items I currently own illegal to own inthe future. Proposed legislation seems to indicate that if I own an "assault weapon" and die, the gun must be turned in to law enforcement. I assume a trust would eliminate this requirement. I do not plan to own any NFA weapons, so does that change the type of trust I can effectively use? Thanks.

 

[PDXSparky]

What is the web address to be able to purchase your trust creation services?

Here is their website where I got my trust: NW Gun Law Group

 

[lmspdx]

Here is their website where I got my trust: NW Gun Law Group

Went through the ordering process for an Oregon trust yesterday on there. Haven't received any sort of confirmation other than my Paypal receipt. Do I just need to be patient? Or did I completely miss a step..?

 

[PDXSparky]

Went through the ordering process for an Oregon trust yesterday on there. Haven't received any sort of confirmation other than my Paypal receipt. Do I just need to be patient? Or did I completely miss a step..?

Shoot them an email tomorrow to see where they are in the process. I got my trust right away.

 

[Snapple]

WITNESSES
The foregoing instrument, consisting of eight pages, including this page, was signed in our presence by FirstandLastName, Settlor and WifeorOther, Trustee. We, at the request and in the presence of the Settlor and in the presence of each other, have subscribed our names below as witnesses. We declare that we are of sound mind and of the proper age to witness a revocable trust, that to the best of our knowledge the Settlor is of the age of majority, or is otherwise legally competent to make a revocable trust, and appears of sound mind and under no undue influence or constraint. Under penalty of perjury, we declare these statements are true and correct on this 22nd day of May, 2009 at _____________________________________________________________, __________________________.



_______________________________________ [Signature of Witness #1]
_______________________________________ [Printed or typed name of Witness #1]
_______________________________________ [Address of Witness #1, Line 1]
_______________________________________ [Address of Witness #1, Line 2]


Have a few questions on this page. Would the "at" part be the address at which it is witnessed and signed? And am I correct in assuming the the trustee can act as the witness, or does it need to be a separate party?

 

[Stomper]

Yes, the address of where all this takes place.

 

[Paranoid Geeks]

I ran across this thread while researching another topic.
The main thing to remember about an NFA trust is THAT IT IS NOT THE SAME AS A GENERIC REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST.
The generic trust documents have no specific NFA provisions and should be avoided when creating your NFA trust.
I am not an attorney and I do not offer legal advice. I have seen what can happen when a "trust" is in possession of NFA weapons but is out of compliance with state laws regarding NFA weapons possession.

I realize this is a hell of a first post but just because I'm new to your forum doesn't mean I'm new to the subject matter being discussed.

I am posting (at least I am trying to post) an attachment with forms for a Washington state NFA trust...same as I used for mine.
The Word version is interactive (fillable on your computer).
The Adobe .pdf version will need the full version of Acrobat in order to enable it as a fillable form.
If they don't post for some reason, I will try again.
I hope this is helpful to at least some of you...

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0TUgqnKa8bqdUpJNEw0aEw2eE0/edit?usp=sharing

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0TUgqnKa8bqVG0wY1pyekFNcVk/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Callidus98]

A dealer recommended 199trust.com to me. Has anyone here had any experience with them?

Also, I see there were a couple of attorneys that offered comments. Thank you for your input. How much (ballpark) would it generally cost to have an NFA trust drafted by an attorney? Having a professional with NFA experience seems to be the best option to me but that would depend on the cost being something I could afford without taking a third mortgage.

 

[Ryo]

I ran across this thread while researching another topic.
The main thing to remember about an NFA trust is THAT IT IS NOT THE SAME AS A GENERIC REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST.
The generic trust documents have no specific NFA provisions and should be avoided when creating your NFA trust.
I am not an attorney and I do not offer legal advice. I have seen what can happen when a "trust" is in possession of NFA weapons but is out of compliance with state laws regarding NFA weapons possession.

I realize this is a hell of a first post but just because I'm new to your forum doesn't mean I'm new to the subject matter being discussed.

I am posting (at least I am trying to post) an attachment with forms for a Washington state NFA trust...same as I used for mine.
The Word version is interactive (fillable on your computer).
The Adobe .pdf version will need the full version of Acrobat in order to enable it as a fillable form.
If they don't post for some reason, I will try again.
I hope this is helpful to at least some of you...

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0TUgqnKa8bqdUpJNEw0aEw2eE0/edit?usp=sharing

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0TUgqnKa8bqVG0wY1pyekFNcVk/edit?usp=sharing

Why would the trust require a NFA provision?

 

[SquidHC]

So sorry but I don't know much of anything about trusts. Is there any reason, other than a faster form 4 processing time, to have a trust established?

 

[Ryo]

So sorry but I don't know much of anything about trusts. Is there any reason, other than a faster form 4 processing time, to have a trust established?

It's not about faster processing time dealing with the trust. Doing a trust let's you bypass the need to get a LEO signoff on getting a NFA item.