Response to a beating?

[Trlsmn]

This would fall under "disparity of force" and "grievous bodily harm", my question is why didn't the guys friend do anything.

 

[Hallofo]

my question is why didn't the guys friend do anything.

Just assuming here, but I would guess it would have something to do with being outnumbered, unarmed and trying to call the police. Please don't take this as sarcasm!

Unless we were there, we could not know every particular with the friend's actions. From the article it seems as though the gang was not just willing to beat someone half to death, but actively enjoying it. In that case, why present then with another target to abuse and by doing so, prevent 911/police/etc... from getting the call?

Something by boss once told me in reference to some craziness at work: "sometimes relocation is the better part of valor". It might be a severe blow to one's feelings of manhood, but ducking, covering and calling might be the "least bad" choice in a given situation.

That said, the presence of a firearm can often have a calming effect on some of the more disruptive members of our community, especially when wielded in a confident, competent manner.

 

[Redrum]

as far as being a hero if it happend on the Max....I was speaking in reference to the overall lack of safety on Trimet, the published major incidents on Trimet in the last year or so...and any lack of willingness to change it on Trimets part.

Trimet is a turd funnel..all it does is give the ****heads in PDX an easy way to move around and do their criminal activities.

you guys probably dont realize it, but Trimet has the same amount of railway and bus lines as the city of Atlanta.

The city of Atlanta has 320 police officers that only patrol the trains and buses. we have 30 police officers that patrol all of Trimet.

Atlanta's train stations are all closed..meaning you have to pay to get in and ride..Trimet's are all open and the downtown section is free.

the train system here is a absolute joke..trying to exclude someone from Trimet takes just short of an act of god.

and just wait until the Clackamas line is finished..the turd funnel of PDX is gonna flush and empty right into the Town Center..you guys down in Clackamas have no idea what you have coming your way.

 

[KENOC]

If you survive the criminal courts....
You will also be sued by each thug, or each ones family if you maim/kill each thug.
If you win, you will only be out of pocket about 70k for each thug. If you lose, you will pay each thug or each thug's family most or all of what each thug would have earned for the rest of their life.

2 people or more attacking one person is Assault III in Oregon. which is a C felony

<broken link removed>

if the injuries sustained are bad enuff..it can also be an assault II

if they stomp the guy it can be elevated assault II + assault III

if they stomp the guy and have combat/logging/steel toe boots on it can be elevated to assault I + assault III

just on face value from whats written in the story. You have at minimun an Assault III happening in front of you.. In Oregon those guys are shootable and you would be legally justified..if it happend on the Max you'd be a bonified hero

 

[BUZO71]

If you survive the criminal courts....
You will also be sued by each thug, or each ones family if you maim/kill each thug.
If you win, you will only be out of pocket about 70k for each thug. If you lose, you will pay each thug or each thug's family most or all of what each thug would have earned for the rest of their life.

Well, you are confusing two separate issues, criminal courts and civil courts. Civil courts are the courts that decide civil and monetary penalties.

Also, its not exactly true that you would pay or even be taken to civil court.... that's always a possibility but I have seen several times where that never happened. I think we would like to believe this ALWAYS goes to civil court but in reality, it happens very seldom.

Most lawyers that would take a civil case like this are working on a contingent- that is, they don't get paid unless they win. If you have a solid use of force, they won't wager losing the time on the case.

 

[KENOC]

I am not confusing anything. As i mentioned, if you make it through the criminal court, you will possibly be sued by the thug or his family in civil court. The average person will spend 70K defending themselves in a justified shooting. That is if they WIN. If they lose, they will likely pay the thug or his family whatever the thug could have potentially earned.
My point is that IF you draw, you better be willing to shoot. And if you shoot you better figure it is worth the 70k that it costs the AVERAGE person to defend in a justified shooting.
I am not saying you should or should not draw your firearm in this instance. But i am saying if you do, you better be ready for the possible consequences.

Well, you are confusing two separate issues, criminal courts and civil courts. Civil courts are the courts that decide civil and monetary penalties.

Also, its not exactly true that you would pay or even be taken to civil court.... that's always a possibility but I have seen several times where that never happened. I think we would like to believe this ALWAYS goes to civil court but in reality, it happens very seldom.

Most lawyers that would take a civil case like this are working on a contingent- that is, they don't get paid unless they win. If you have a solid use of force, they won't wager losing the time on the case.

 

[RainbowBob]

...that's one of the responsibilities that comes with the decision to carry... to defend not only yourself, but others that cannot as well...in a similar circumstance I would feel it my duty to protect someone getting beat to **** for telling some thugs to shut up.

You believe you have a duty to protect others?

What if the odds are potentially suicidal?

What about your duty to come home safely to your family and take care of them?

What if the victim initiated the conflict?

Does the victim have any responsibilities here?

How about his responsibility not to purposely step on a hornet's nest (e.g., telling a group of gangsta thugs to "shut up")?

How about his responsibility to arm himself and be competent with his firearm?

How about his responsibility to you to avoid precipitating a dangerous incident that might cause you to have to do your perceived duty?

 

[BUZO71]

And what I'm saying is that civil court is not automatically going to happen. If you're thinking about civil courts when using your firearms, you shouldn't be carrying. Its a consideration when you first start carrying and after everything is done.

 

[KENOC]

Hogwash. Civil courts should always be a concern, carrying or not.
Physical force, firearm or no firearm, should always be a last resort.
First resort for a prudent person should always be relocate yourself to a safe distance, ESPECIALLY when outnumbered, and call 911. THEN if the thugs approach draw and keep them at a distance.
That is what criminal AND civil courts want to see.
And what is typically best for you and those within your immediate vicinity, especially when the thugs have not drawn weapons but are likely to be armed.... A dead 'hero' or a jailed hero is worthless to everyone.

And what I'm saying is that civil court is not automatically going to happen. If you're thinking about civil courts when using your firearms, you shouldn't be carrying. Its a consideration when you first start carrying and after everything is done.

 

[BUZO71]

You believe you have a duty to protect others? If you calculate the risks, why not?

What if the odds are potentially suicidal?
It did not appear by his post that he was going to jump right in... we can't assume otherwise

What about your duty to come home safely to your family and take care of them?
So we should all just stand by and watch this guy die? Again, there is nothing in the post stating otherwise.

What if the victim initiated the conflict?
What does it matter if the guy precipitated the this by telling these guys to shut up? Did he deserve being beat down?

Because, if we follow that example, a guy flips of another driver and the other driver shoots him, well, you say, that guy deserved to get shot?

Does the victim have any responsibilities here?
To do what? What would you like him to do?

How about his responsibility not to purposely step on a hornet's nest (e.g., telling a group of gangsta thugs to "shut up")?
His words and deeds did not guarantee a violent response.

How about his responsibility to arm himself and be competent with his firearm?
Again, since he did not have a gun, we sit around and watch these guys beat him to death? You don't believe that do you?

How about his responsibility to you to avoid precipitating a dangerous incident that might cause you to have to do your perceived duty?
Repeating.... regardless of what he SAID, he did not go after these guys to fight them. And, at the point where you are going to get involved, it doesn't matter. You can either sit by as a sheep or do something.

SLOW DOWN.... lets not attack the guy for voicing his view his opinion. If you would not have got involved in the situation, well, you'll have to live with your decision.

 

[BUZO71]

Hogwash. Civil courts should always be a concern, carrying or not.
Physical force, firearm or no firearm, should always be a last resort.
First resort for a prudent person should always be relocate yourself to a safe distance, ESPECIALLY when outnumbered, and call 911. THEN if the thugs approach draw and keep them at a distance.
That is what criminal AND civil courts want to see.
And what is typically best for you and those within your immediate vicinity, especially when the thugs have not drawn weapons but are likely to be armed.... A dead 'hero' or a jailed hero is worthless to everyone.

That's what they want to see huh? How do you know? How many cases have you been involved in? Or is this what you read?

Sometimes, 911 is enough, sometimes, it isn't. Also, if you draw, you are not drawing to keep them at a distance. You are legally drawing with the intent to use lethal force. If they stop, well then the threat changes and that may be all the force you need to use.

I do agree with you that if only calling 911 is needed, then that's all you need to do. If I read the situation though, calling 911 isn't going to stop the attack. If so, great. If not, you personally have to decide if/what you are going to do. That can run a full spectrum of force.

Also, if you read, I also agree with you that civil court is a concern- but not when you are considering using your weapon. Is something you should be thinking about well in advance or after force is used.

In the end, you have to live with what you do. Its not about being a hero. its about doing what is right for everyone involved.

 

[KENOC]

I just personally am not going to draw on 6 thugs who likely are armed. What happens when they they each spread out and draw their knives or guns? With bystanders all around? Or you draw and one of them grabs the victim and holds a knife/gun to the victims head/throat? Sorry but most of us are not equipped to deal with that kind of situation.
99&#37; of the time, unless YOU are in immediate danger of GBH, your weapon should stay holstered, you should relocate, and yell to the thugs and victim that 911 has been called and is on the way.
RARELY should one try to play the hero in that kind of situation. Again, you are just as likely to escalate things beyond your control by drawing, as you are to 'save' the guy.
A beating is horrible, a shootout is worse.
That is my opinion, and what i was taught once by the wisest Osensei i ever knew. Keep your cool and use your head, not your fists or your guns. Take it for whatever it is worth. But it has kept me alive and out of jail.

That's what they want to see huh? How do you know? How many cases have you been involved in? Or is this what you read?

Sometimes, 911 is enough, sometimes, it isn't. Also, if you draw, you are not drawing to keep them at a distance. You are legally drawing with the intent to use lethal force. If they stop, well then the threat changes and that may be all the force you need to use.

I do agree with you that if only calling 911 is needed, then that's all you need to do. If I read the situation though, calling 911 isn't going to stop the attack. If so, great. If not, you personally have to decide if/what you are going to do. That can run a full spectrum of force.

Also, if you read, I also agree with you that civil court is a concern- but not when you are considering using your weapon. Is something you should be thinking about well in advance or after force is used.

In the end, you have to live with what you do. Its not about being a hero. its about doing what is right for everyone involved.

 

[clearconscience]

There's a new gang that started taking over certain markets and one of them is seattle. I can't remember what their called it's three letters but they basically began in night clubs going to see metal bands perform, the kind of bands taht just scream into the mic. We'll they just fight, if someone picks a fight with one of them you get the entire crowd jumping you, if you say soemthing out of place, look at them funny, whatever, they jump you and do the most damage possible. They started in Pittsburgh or somewhere and were fighting skinheads in the clubs and it just spread like wild fire guys trying to be tougher than the next guy. I don't know for sure if this was that gang but it sounds like it.
But in this case I would suggest carrying a gun with a swapped out barrel preferably in a different caliber, staying out of camera view and draw down.
I'm not the type of guy to go old west but no one will shed tears for these guys

 

[RainbowBob]

But in this case I would suggest carrying a gun with a swapped out barrel preferably in a different caliber, staying out of camera view and draw down.

You're kiddin', right?

 

[Spray-n-pray]

I'm not the type of guy to go old west but no one will shed tears for these guys

Dang, D! Don't sugar coat it. Tell us how you really feel.

 

[RainbowBob]

What does it matter if the guy precipitated the this by telling these guys to shut up? Did he deserve being beat down?

I made it VERY clear in my previous post that this violent assault was absolutely, positively unjustified.

I also made it clear that the victim has a responsibility - as do we all - to avoid obvious hazards that put him - and anyone else in the vicinity - at risk.

Believe me - it took me until recently to realize that I am not the arbiter of public behavior. In fact, until a few months ago, I was still occasionally correcting bad public behavior.

I've only been carrying concealed for about two years. Last month I was in situation where I commented on a thug's rude actions - and nearly had to draw on him when he challenged and threatened me.

Fortunately that situation resolved itself without bloodshed or a beating - but it was mighty close!

It was then that I began re-evaluating my responsibilities in regard to the behavior of others. I came to the conclusion that the best course of action is to say nothing and move away from the offenders.

I am not saying I would not come to the aid of a stranger getting assaulted just because they could have and should have avoided it.

But precipitating events do enter into the calculation - as do the odds of 6-to-1.

If it's me or my loved ones - I'm wading in without hesitation.

But I'm not likely going to embark on a suicide mission to save the bacon of a stranger that should have been minding his own business in the first place.

 

[Hallofo]

If it's me or my loved ones - I'm wading in without hesitation.

But I'm not likely going to embark on a suicide mission to save the bacon of a stranger that should have been minding his own business in the first place.

Good point, I stand (sit) corrected! I'm thinking I might have given my inner Rambo a little to much leash. I guess it's a bit easy to come up with all sorts of gnarly tactical solutions from the comfort of my well-padded armchair.

But I digress all over the place. I think the main thing to take away from this is that it is ALL dependant on the situation. There are far too many variables to be able to say "oh, if X happens, then I'll do Y" or some such nonsense. It's all about training, situational awareness and the specifics of the event.

 

[Contento]

The handicapped dude made a very poor decision...but I'm not gonna ignore reality just because he got an *** whooping.


He should have known better considering what city he was in and the fact that he can't hardly defend himself against one guy- let alone a group of guys.


Young fatherless thugs from the ghetto parts of town are just looking for ways to prove themselves and impress their friends, beating a guys *** is usually near the top of their list. Hence, this dude should have shown more common sense considering they didn't threaten him either verbally or physically before he told them to "shut up".


Darwin was at work here- Don't poke the sleeping Bear unless you expect to possibly get bitten. Alternatively, stay the **** out of Federal Way!

 

[clearconscience]

Look obviously I was over exagerating what my response would to to that situation. I would probably call the cops and try to follow them. But if it got to a point where they are beating the man until he is going to die (no I'm not a doc but you can tell when someone is getting a life threatening blow) I would draw down and do what is necessary to save that man's life.
Our society is going to come to a boiling point where it's us against them. We're going to come to a time where we might have to take someone's life. And situations like this are happening more and more often. I'm mean are you guys serious? You see a man get beaten half to death and your going to watch? Walk away? Great I hope I don't get jumped in your part of town. And when it comes to helping them, with everybody and their mother taking MMA and martial arts classes any dumb kid could knock you out, or choke you out and when they search for your wallet, BAM! They have a gun. So the next guy they'll just shoot. You can tell their family, your welcome!
I hope to God I am never in this sitaution but in this crap society most likely I will be, but I can't be sure I won't be the one in handcuffs at the end of the night. But if it gets someone else home to their family so be it.
I'm sure the some of you would rather let the next guy take the beating, if he dies, oh well. At least your not going to miss supper.
Until they jump you a week later.

 

[Buddhalux]

Amen CC!!!


Quite a few years ago there was short story about who's left to fight for Jewish rights during the Nazi climb to power. Stories like these tend to remind me of that story.