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Rem. 700

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by deadeye, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. deadeye

    deadeye Albany,OR. Moderator Staff Member

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    Anybody else watch the report on the Remington 700 that was on at 7:00 on CNBC? I don't normally watch that channel but was flipping through and caught it early into the report. They make it sound like Remington has been covering up the accidental discharge associated with a faulty safety all along since it was first manufactured. I think if they really had a problem there it would have been known a long time ago with the way word spreads in the shooting community.
     
  2. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

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    I have read several tragic reports of Remington "accidents" over the past few days. I keep coming back to the rules of gun safety. In ALL cases, the accident would not have happened if all four rules had been followed. Case in point, the mother who tragically killed her son. WHY WAS A FIREARM POINTED AT THE CHILD!?!?!? See rule #2 of the four rules. NEVER POINT A FIREARM AT ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY. ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED (#1) seems to apply also.

    The father standing over his child's coffin saying he would never let anything like that happen again is touching (seriously), but I keep thinking he means he'll never let his wife touch a gun again, because honestly she cannot follow the rules.

    I have been gunsmithing on and off for several years. The only issues I have seen with Remington 700's is when someone has been messing with the guns...
     
  3. terrylf72

    terrylf72 Portland, Oregon, United States Member

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    I saw it. Not sure what to say though. I have Rem 700's and I tested each one as they did in the show and I had no problem at all. Although 1 of the 3 has an after market trigger. the oldest one is a 30-06 and 15yrs old, second in 223 and its about 5 or 6 yrs old as well, newest 308 and is 5yrs old..
     
  4. zeppelin

    zeppelin Benton County WA Active Member

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    I have personally killed no fewer than 5 elk with Rem 700s in 7mm Rem mag. All were first rate weapons. My M700 .223 and .308 are tack drivers with no problems. I have a M700 FS in 7mm Mag that will shoot 3 in one hole with handloaods. Military uses M700s in some variant all over the place. Anybody saying these are faulty guns would be highly suspect in IMO.
     
  5. deadeye

    deadeye Albany,OR. Moderator Staff Member

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    They're not saying that the rifle is not accurate or doesnt fire. The issue is with the safety not being 100% reliable. Reports of deaths due to safety still allowing rifle to fire and such. Most of the accidental deaths in my opinion are due to neglagance or inexperience of operator along with not realizing what they just did and blaming the rifle. Sounds like everyone involved needed a refresher in gun safety 101.
     
  6. Outrider

    Outrider Oregon Active Member

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    It's not just gun handling, it's maintenance. There is a separate thread on this topic in another section of the board. As I wrote in that one, I have heard of this being a problem before the CNBC piece. I heard about it from a retired FBI firearms instructor who mentioned it during a safety briefing I attended. In that case, one of his people had used WD-40 instead of gun oil. The problem was that when the WD-40 dried it left a film on the sear and connector which messed up the engagement and that allowed the rifle to fire without the trigger being touched.

    CNBC may be playing it up to be a bigger problem, but the premise of the piece is fundamentally sound. Although the trigger Walker originally designed will work so long as it is maintained properly and not altered by a garage gunsmith, there are memos from Walker who recognized that the trigger was vulnerable to AD's if certain conditions were met. He even designed a substitute that was less susceptible to AD's from debris, gunk, etc. Remington went with his original design to save money. -This is all documented and Walker said as much in his interview.

    The problems are: 1) some people do not properly maintain their gear and 2) some people will tinker with stuff (and then sell to an unsuspecting buyer).

    The poor gun handling (failing to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction) is what turns an AD (which is bad on its own) into a tragedy.
     
  7. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    First M700 shot in 1971. First M700 owned in 1974. Currently I own seven. Never have experienced a safety malfunction, or even an indication of a possible one. I do adjust the triggers, per specific instructions from DeHaas' book, and never without that book open and reviewed. Installed Timneys on 3 of mine, multiple others for friends. Not the place for this debate, but I know what WD40 will do, and what it won't do (after 45years with it), and I still use it for its correct purposes, and I would imagine that most of my M700's have some of it in the trigger mech.

    I suspect (as most others here) that any "malfunction" could most probably be traced to the safety mechanism in the human brain. Each of them fails every day.
     
  8. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

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    5 million sold over 48 years with 2 dozen accidental deaths caused by defect, I'd say they have a remarkably safe record for a firearm.

    5 million rifles, 2 dozen fatal accidents = % of accidents from defects .0005%

    I'd like to see the industry outside of the gun industry that didn't call those numbers a stellar success. When you consider the life span of a firearm the numbers look even better compared to the life span of other consumer products.
     
  9. tlfreek

    tlfreek Vancouver WA Active Member

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    hmm....numbers are great when you use them in the right context. One death is far too many especially concerning the video I saw of a law enformecement sniper simply touching the bolt and the rifle would fire. if thats the case one death is too many.

    as far as the statement above - here's a joke for ya

    an auditor interviewing for a job walks into a job interview and the interviewer says on his final question, "how much is 2+2?" the auditor says "4" The interviewer says great thanks we'll call you.

    another auditor interviewing for the same job walks into the job interview and the interviewer says on his final question, "how much is 2+2?" the auditor says "4" The interviewer says great thanks we'll call you.

    the third auditor interviewing for the same job walks into the job interview and the interviewer says on his final question, "how much is 2+2?" the auditor says "how much do you want it to be?" The interviewer says "you're hired."
     
  10. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but would an LEO sniper's trigger be stock? I've seen any number of Remington 700's that have been mishandled by so called armorers that have made them problematic.
     
  11. olyshoots

    olyshoots Vancouver USA Member

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    Well said. It is IMPOSSIBLE to not have defects in any product, whether they be natural or caused by some human action. Using the same approach with the numbers in looking for higher % defects, one could find many, many more gun makes/brands/models with much worse records. Guns have an inherent danger - accidents can and will happen - and it's why safety is paramount.
     
  12. Brandon44647

    Brandon44647 Portland Member

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    I understand both sides of this, In my opinion one malfunction/ "accidental death" is to many. Especially if Remington knew there WAS a problem that could have been fixed for (if I heard it right) 5.5 cents ? This was right around the 200 made mark, But chose not to ? Really ? Am I just being paranoid ? I have one, never a problem with it. But it makes me wonder about the reputation of Remington and their firearms........ How many of you actually watched the CNBC episode and thinks Remington did nothing wrong ?
     
  13. yotehunter

    yotehunter north west Active Member

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    I love my 700 more than any other firearm I have owned. I had a problem with the safety once too. I had a round chambered and the safety on, had it in the house needed to unload it so I opened up the floor plate, dumped the shells, closed the floor plate. I knew there was one left in the chamber. I pointed the gun towards the ceiling. (1 level no one above me.) Had my hand no where near the trigger. I disengaged the safety and bang the rifle went off projecting my 50gn vmax bullet into a marlin 30-30 barrel of a rifle on the wall, then splattering the rest of the round into the ceiling.
     
  14. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    How many of you actually watched the CNBC episode and thinks Remington did nothing wrong ?

    How many of you actually watched when network news put a bomb in a Chevy pickup truck and detonated it to "prove" the gas tank was deliberately installed in a vulnerable place, and thinks Chevy did nothing wrong?
     
  15. Outrider

    Outrider Oregon Active Member

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    It's one thing to support a company, it's another to avert your eyes so you can refuse to see something you do not want to see because it does not fit your world view.

    Look at the material presented.

    1) They had Walker, the man who designed the rifle, explain the issue.

    2) They had Walker's memos from back in the day discussing the issue potentially occurring and his substitute trigger design to guard against it.

    3) They had internal memos from the people Walker reported to who wrote that the improved trigger Walker proposed was better than the original design but that due to cost they were not going to use it.

    4) They had internal memos from Remington where doing a recall over the issue was discussed and dismissed due to cost.

    5) There have been successful lawsuits against Remington for this issue along with a series of out of court settlements.

    -That's very different than rigging a display for a show.

    Think of a semiautomatic rifle that may slam-fire if ammo with soft primers is used. The rifle works reliably unless a specific condition is introduced. Once that condition occurs, it is no longer safe. -It does not mean that as a whole the rifle is bad. It simply means a bad thing can happen if the stars align. FN had this issue with its initial batch of FS2000 rifles and they fixed it by changing the firing pin and spring. Bushmaster's ACR has this issue and is currently subject to a recall.

    With the Remington 700, they can replicate the conditions they need to cause an AD to occur. The design has a vulnerability that makes it susceptible to having an AD. Again, that does not mean that the rifle is bad. It simply means an AD can happen if certain things occur. The big ones in the piece were listed as:

    Improper assembly of the trigger at the factory.
    Improper modification of the trigger.
    Improper maintenance that results in rust, debris, gunk, etc. in the trigger.

    How many people are surprised that improper assembly or improper modification can lead to an unsafe result? -That should not be controversial. -Improper maintenance is a real issue. There are shooters who have little knowledge of how to properly maintain or clean their firearms. Some boast about how they never or very rarely clean their guns. They will continue doing what they do until it ceases to work for them. They cannot be convinced by others that their approach is wrong until they experience a major problem.

    Maybe the show was making more of it than it is, but it seemed fairly clear that if foreign material got into the mechanism that material could interfere with the connector and produce an unsafe condition. The rifle's designer said as much himself. This should not be an argument.
     
  16. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    It is probably thee most popular action,so there will be a few problems on record.

    How many 700s in the field right now?
    How many ADs? .000%?

    The anti's will always exploit whatever they can.

    I have read 10 or so threads on this and have only seen a small percentage of ADs in those threads.

    Seems like a few operator errors in the totals
     
  17. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

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    That's true, one negligent death is too many. But if people followed the rules of gun safety at all times, they cannot happen. I repeat, all firearms are ALWAYS loaded. Never point any gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy. The only way an accidental/negligent death can happen is if these two rules are not followed.

    If the rules are followed, a problem with the trigger won't be any more than an inconvenience...
     
  18. deadeye

    deadeye Albany,OR. Moderator Staff Member

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    That is what I was thinking everytime they brought up the deaths/injuries during the report.
     
  19. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Outrider characterizes my response (about network news putting a bomb in a Chevy truck) as evidence I refuse to acknowledge what doesn't fit my world view.

    My response actually addressed nothing about the M700. I don't doubt at all that a mechanical device can fail. I also don't doubt at all (NEWS FLASH! THIS JUST IN! GROUNDBREAKING REVELATION!) that corporations will try to save a dime wherever they can, and that safety additions that cost money will always be weighed against the risk to the corporation. Not pretty, but a fact of life (sometimes death).

    My response merely was a commentary (with hard example) that we should view with skepticism any news report, and most especially from television news organizations. That is all.

    Outrider presents the show's viewpoint well, and in its entirety.

    My personal, lengthy, and extensive experience with the M700, and my personal negative experiences with news media construct for me a world view that fortunately arms me with healthy skepticism.
     
  20. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

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    You mean you don't trust the media? I can't see why, they have such a good track record of unbiased and truthful reporting... :laugh::laugh::laugh: