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reloads all over the target, help

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by prkrgrp, Oct 12, 2010.

  1. prkrgrp

    prkrgrp oregon Active Member

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    decided to reload 60 grain nosler soft point min load to start, 3 rounds where all over the target all where low left center and to the right, same gun with 60 grain hornady v max 3 rounds 2in circle 200 yds, should i change powder or increase the load to max?
     
  2. claypigeon

    claypigeon Salem Member

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    The answer is yes. Load 5 rounds with the lightest load suggested for your caliber/bullet. Then load 5 more with a little heavier load and so on until you get to the max load. Then go to the range and see which one shoots the best groups with your gun. If you are not happy with any of those results, change your powder and start over with the load data for that powder. You have to find what works best for your gun and it may not be what works in mine.
     
  3. RVTECH

    RVTECH LaPine Well-Known Member

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    I have always found the best powder for a starting load is to first choose the bullet you will be loading, then from the "matrix" in your loading manual find the load that has the flattest trajectory for that bullet and use the powder for that load. Start with the minimum for that powder/bullet combination. Providing you are following load procedures correctly and WEIGHING each charge (for rifle loads) you should experience acceptable to great accuracy. Rarely are maximum loads the most accurate - most often the opposite. If you are using a powder measure to throw your powder charges stop now and start weighing each charge - and I mean to the 1/10th grain. This is one of the most important aspects of reloading rifle ammo - especially if you want maximum accuracy - other than weighing several bullets and choosing those closest in weight if you are creating some perfectly controlled loads to test.
     
  4. accurateone

    accurateone Eastern Washington Member

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    Also note CONSISTENCY, you said you are comparing V-Max (Fiber tipped), to Soft point. Even though the same manufacture, these are different projectiles.

    Same cases, same powder, exact same charge, Good quality (same) primers, same Overall length of cartridge, all very important. Did you use a scale to check the powder charges? Did you have a factory Hornady cartridge to compare overall length after you seatred the bullet? Once you have absolute consistency down... then try varying the powder charges as recommended by the manufacturer..
    HINT: changing the charge changes the Barrel harmonics, and point of impact.
    It's like this, string a slinky between two kids and have one swing his end up & down, once softly, then once hard. you can see the difference in "wave" or "harmonics". Same with your barrel vibrating differently under different charges. That's why precision barrels are generally heavy profile "Bull" barrels to reduce the whip of the harmonics. Then make sure the barrel is free floated by putting a dollar bill around it and pulling it back towards the receiver. If it's free floated the dollar will pass between the stock fore end, and the barrel without catching. If when you test your shots you add a Bipod directly to the barrel, or use a 'rest" that touches the barrell it will change the harmonics and affect the POI on target. Consistency of your loads, and unobstruction of the barrel harmonics will help tighten up a grouping. and never forget with accuracy there is no replacement for a good tuned trigger! Have fun.
    A1
     
  5. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    You never mentioned which cartridge this was for.... Also, is this an auto-loader or a bolt gun?

    However, the one thing I can guarantee, if you have a load which is showing inconsistency like that NEVER push it to max, all you are doing is exacerbating the problem.

    I am guessing, if this is an auto-loader, forget about using soft pointed bullets. Hollow points, and the plastic/ballistic tips out there have much better performance as they don't deform like exposed lead tips do. I hate softpoint bullets... I've had more than a few hunts that were ruined by bullets that got banged around in my pocket while waiting to be put downrange at dinner.
     
  6. Throckmorton

    Throckmorton Florence,Ore ah gone Well-Known Member

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    I experimented last week with shooting ammo that I did not crimp,just loaded them singly in my marlin levergun.
    I had read on the web that' you don't need to crimp rifle ammo.'
    bull hockey. my shots were a foot apart all over the paper.

    shot the crimped rounds and they tightened up to 1".

    most seater dies have a crimp ring built in,are you crimping your rounds any ? I'll bef if u do things weill impove dramatically.

    it's actually best to crimp in a seperate step,way easiirt to fine tune the depth and crimp when using 2 dies for those steps.

    please tell us what you did step by step to load this ammo.
     
  7. prkrgrp

    prkrgrp oregon Active Member

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    cleaned brass resized to lymans specs
    primed
    loaded powder
    inserted bullet to lymans specs
    measured head neck and shoulder to specs
    went to range and fired 5 rounds.
    rem 7 22-250
    also how do i know what my rifle chamber length is for seating the bullet to correct length
     
  8. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    lever action ammo MUST ALWAYS BE CRIMPED! In fact, this is the #1 issue for lever actions, especially pistol caliber rifles, I've gone to great lengths and as a standard, any round fired through a lever gun should take a minimum of 100lbs of force to push the bullet back into the case. (this is with a crimp mind you) Bolt actions, and other magazine fed rifles don't have this issue, but anything tube fed requires tight crimping!

    Under these circumstances, try backing off the crimp, in bolt action rifles, the crimp can cause other issues, especially if it is deep enough to cut into the bullet.
     
  9. prkrgrp

    prkrgrp oregon Active Member

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    i am already to the max 2.350 lyman spec book
     
  10. toolfan

    toolfan North Portland Member

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    Crimp has nothing to do with cartridge or case length.

    Really, what you should do is reread the front of your manual to better understand the steps, or maybe take the class that's offered by one of the vendors here.
     
  11. Throckmorton

    Throckmorton Florence,Ore ah gone Well-Known Member

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    not if you single load,as I said I did.

    other than that I do inded crimp all rounds going into a tube mag.

    the op's post hasn't mentioned whether he's set the seater die to set a crimp,and I wonder if he has ??
     
  12. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    Guess I must have missed that part. Not really sure why you got such poor performance then, I know the groups out of my .308 tightened up when I stopped crimping so aggressively. I know this can also be a function of the type of powder (I typically use varget which is somewhat sub-optimal in .30-30). I have also seen rounds (.45 Colt Esp!) which if the crimp is inconsistent or omitted causes really erratic performance, even with known good loads.

    But back to the topic at hand, I think there's some kind of crimping issue outstanding here, under normal circumstances, a good load will not suddenly go to pot when the bullet changes, a POI change is expected, and the groups may be different, but I have never seen a group double in size unless the bullets were of really poor quality (Happened to me once when I got a bunch of pulled vicker's machinegun bullets for my .303 brit).

    If you're interested in finding out what the min/max length is of the throat of your gun, brownells sells tools for that. Typically it looks like a cartridge case that instead of having a primer pocket, it has a female thread, which you put on the end of a cleaning rod. This is the baseline for where your throat becomes too tight for you to load rounds without forcing the bullet into the rifling. There are about a dozen schools of thought on whether you should put the bullet right into the rifling, or what jump you should have. I avoid this condition and load to standard cartridge OAL, as loading nearer the throat tends to spike pressures if you're right on it. Pressure spiking is bad because it does so inconsistently, not to mention the potential damage to the shooter and firearm.
     
  13. prkrgrp

    prkrgrp oregon Active Member

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    would this be a head space gauge?
     
  14. The Cheese

    The Cheese somewhere special Member

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    one thing I did when working up some 30-06 loads was use the procedure from this page. Was a really cool technique and if you do it just like they say, you get some pretty interesting results. between the 7 or so targets you can see the groups open up, get smaller, then open up again. I really like using that. Only bad part was the bruising on my shoulder after lobbing 60+ rounds down range in one day using my hunting rifle.
     
  15. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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  16. prkrgrp

    prkrgrp oregon Active Member

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  17. tac

    tac UK, Oregon and Ontario. Well-Known Member

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    Nossir - a headspace gauge measures the gap between the face of the bolt and the face of the breech.

    What the poster is describing woould be more like a tool that used to be called a Stoney point cartridge length gauge. This uses a modified cartridge case with a loosely fitting bullet that is gently pushed into the throat of the rifling until it stops. The gauge is then locked, and removed from the gun. The length of the whole case and bullet is then measured with a set of dial calipers to determine the overall length of that round with THAT particualr bullet as it touches the rifling. Obviously if the bullet shape is different then you will have a different length overall. Most reloaders adjust the bullet seating die so that the bullet either touches the rifling, or is a certain distance out of the rifling - this depends entirely on you, and it is a matter of trial and error to determine where the best accuracy occurs. My particular rifles shoot with 10 thou of of the lands [Krico] and touching the lands [Hammerli], 15 thou out [Mauser] and 20 thou out [another Mauser].

    tac
    Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund
     
  18. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Gettin' into this discussion kinda late, and I admit I read over the posts kinda fast, but I'm surprised that (I think) nobody talked about his choice of bullet (especially weight).

    A 60 grain .22 bullet is at the upper margin. Bullet choice is THE first, most influential place where accuracy can be improved when handloading.

    Maybe that Model 7 doesn't like big bullets. Wouldn't be alone in its dislike.

    Toss a few 50-55grain pills down the pipe with any respectable load (H380 is the best place to start with a .22-250).

    Find a bullet that shows promise, THEN start messing around with the tiny details like primer selection, seating depth, etc.

    Here's a rule to remember, applies to almost anything mechanical (and I always forget it):

    If the malfunction is sudden and dramatic, the cause is almost always something simple and stupid.
     
  19. rodell

    rodell Newcastle, WA Active Member

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    You can find the chamber throat depth by lightly seating a bullet into a sized (but unprimed) case as far out as it will go. Make sure the bullet can move into the neck without a lot of resistance. Some people slit the case - I've never found it necessary. Chamber the round (gently!) and the bullet will be pushed back into the case when the bullet touches the lands. Take the cartridge out and measure it. You should never have a cartridge that is closer to the lands than .05" unless you are very experienced (and have the tools to measure it). Subtract your desired seating distance from your measurement and you have your cartridge length. Often, this "max" length is longer than your magazine will allow, so you will need to check that as well.

    In reality, you are using overall length as a substitute for where the bullet's ogive contacts the lands. If you really want to be picky, put some marker on the bullet and chamber the test round. You'll see the point on the ogive where the bullet contacts the lands.

    Other than for true Weatherbys, I've found the best accuracy often comes .050"-.080" off the lands and not at maximum velocity. A good place to start load development is with the "most accurate load tested" in Lyman's 49th.
     
  20. prkrgrp

    prkrgrp oregon Active Member

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    2.452 new brass, no primer slowly chambered, based on your suggestion i will load to 2.402.