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Yup. Koda, you can add both of those experiences to the pros of monolithics for sure.
this is a good thread making me consider on a monolithic for my rifle for everything, Ive never considered the performance of a lighter projectile could equal a heavier but its clearer now how the two technologies work so differently.
Now if only I was a better hunter and could get one every year... :p
 
this is a good thread making me consider on a monolithic for my rifle for everything, Ive never considered the performance of a lighter projectile could equal a heavier but its clearer now how the two technologies work so differently.
Now if only I was a better hunter and could get one every year... :p
I think it’s not whether one or the other is better. It’s more of a list of pros and cons for each, and deciding which one fits your needs and philosophy.

Unless using the high shoulder shot, I actually have more “dead right there” kills with cup and core bullets. Bullet fragments cause a lot of damage and start more bleeds. But, I’ve had more instances of ruined meat because of that.
 
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I think it’s not whether one or the other is better. It’s more of a list of pros and cons for each, and deciding which one fits your needs and philosophy.
oh I tend to overthink things, part of my personality. I don't think I can go wrong with either choice, I just didn't know how the lighter monolithic could perform equally as the heavier partition I'm wanting until this thread so this is something to consider. My only motivation for putting this much thought is I just want to maximise my options with my 25cal for elk if I had a larger caliber I would have switched to monolithics already for the lead free advantage.
 
oh I tend to overthink things, part of my personality. I don't think I can go wrong with either choice, I just didn't know how the lighter monolithic could perform equally as the heavier partition I'm wanting until this thread so this is something to consider. My only motivation for putting this much thought is I just want to maximise my options with my 25cal for elk if I had a larger caliber I would have switched to monolithics already for the lead free advantage.
It’s a different cartridge, but a friend frequently uses the 100gr TTSX in the 257 Weatherby Magnum on elk and hasn’t had any issues.
 
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I've see talk about the partitions and the TTSX but has anyone had experience with the Hornady GMX? and does anyone have more info on the Hornady CX, most I know is that it's an alloy monolithic instead of just copper.
 
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I've see talk about the partitions and the TTSX but has anyone had experience with the Hornady GMX? and does anyone have more info on the Hornady CX, most I know is that it's an alloy monolithic instead of just copper.
I can tell you not to use TTSX load data with GMX bullets. Same powder, same weight bullet, pierced primers with the GMX "light" load, no issue with TTSX max load. My mistake, quick learn.
 
what Ive read is it mostly winds up in ground burger where scraps go since butchers try to save most of the meat around the wound channel. I imagine if one butcherd their own game they could reject a lot more around the wound channel and "probably" get it all though its still no guarantee a few particles wont travel farther on its own.

View attachment 1076818
Yes, I butcher my own and am pretty picky about what I pack or keep to send out for pepperoni/sausage. This year we're going to grind some of our own burger, with pork added, but that will come from meat designated for the stew pot.
That doesn't mean I couldn't miss something, though. This year I took a raking shot on a small buck at a close range. When skinning, it appeared the bullet came apart, but I think that was just a section of a rib bone causing the extra hole in the hide. The bullet continued on, breaking ribs and narrowly missing the leg bone on the opposite side. First game animal where I didn't blow apart a shoulder blade. I had less to throw in the garbage can for a change. Shot at 10-12 yards and the Ballistic Tip made a pretty good sized exit hole with no lungs left.
oh I tend to overthink things, part of my personality. I don't think I can go wrong with either choice, I just didn't know how the lighter monolithic could perform equally as the heavier partition I'm wanting until this thread so this is something to consider. My only motivation for putting this much thought is I just want to maximise my options with my 25cal for elk if I had a larger caliber I would have switched to monolithics already for the lead free advantage.
I'm thinking the weight retention of the monolithic bullets would be a very good reason FOR using one in a 25-06 for elk, especially if shooting at any distance. I know your intention is/was to use the Partition, which is a good killer, but I'd not shy away from these suckers for that purpose. A larger caliber can make up for a not so good bullet because of mass. The little guys are the ones where I'd think the mono would be most useful. Just my opinion.
 
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I'm thinking the weight retention of the monolithic bullets would be a very good reason FOR using one in a 25-06 for elk, especially if shooting at any distance. I know your intention is/was to use the Partition, which is a good killer, but I'd not shy away from these suckers for that purpose. A larger caliber can make up for a not so good bullet because of mass. The little guys are the ones where I'd think the mono would be most useful. Just my opinion.
My old school logic has always been the smaller the caliber to lean to the heavier projectiles for big game. 30 years ago that logic was all I had to grow up with, my only hunting partner then, my dad, was one of those that felt you cant go big enough... he hunted with a 300 win mag (short version he sold it without telling me...) so the idea of using the 25-06 was to me, sketchy. One year I got invited on an elk hunt and only having the .25 I went, and dropped a 4pt bull one shot... Ive gone on to drop 3 more [spikes] all with devastating results, all with lead cup and core projectiles so I decided to develop a handload with a partition and be done with any skeptisism. It wasnt until after I started investing in reloading I started realized the options of using monolithics...
I'm working on developing both concurrently, I bought a supply of 100gr TTXS and from this thread thinking I will stay with the TTSX over the Hammer projectiles favoring slightly deeper penetration. I still have some hesitation on the idea of say a monster trophy bull at longer range. It might come down to simply which projectile groups the best, or maybe I will pick the monolithic for everything. I dont know yet but now that Im learning the monolithic is up to the task Im favoring lead free meat.
 
My old school logic has always been the smaller the caliber to lean to the heavier projectiles for big game. 30 years ago that logic was all I had to grow up with, my only hunting partner then, my dad, was one of those that felt you cant go big enough... he hunted with a 300 win mag (short version he sold it without telling me...) so the idea of using the 25-06 was to me, sketchy. One year I got invited on an elk hunt and only having the .25 I went, and dropped a 4pt bull one shot... Ive gone on to drop 3 more [spikes] all with devastating results, all with lead cup and core projectiles so I decided to develop a handload with a partition and be done with any skeptisism. It wasnt until after I started investing in reloading I started realized the options of using monolithics...
I'm working on developing both concurrently, I bought a supply of 100gr TTXS and from this thread thinking I will stay with the TTSX over the Hammer projectiles favoring slightly deeper penetration. I still have some hesitation on the idea of say a monster trophy bull at longer range. It might come down to simply which projectile groups the best, or maybe I will pick the monolithic for everything. I dont know yet but now that Im learning the monolithic is up to the task Im favoring lead free meat.
I get it. Dad shot a 303 British most of my life. 210gr for elk, 180 for deer. He switched to a 30-06 when I bought him a scope and then a gun to put it on. By the way, all three 180gr Core-Lokts went thru the moose he shot in Canada. There hasn't been anything but 180gr bullets down the barrel of my 30-06AI, before or after it was rechambered, and nothing else as long as I've owned the 30-06 I bought used. I even took my '06 to an Appleseed two day event and shot 180's out of it. (that was fun! :D ) I've shot all but one game animal with 180's, the exception being the 30WCF and a 170. I've been sitting on two boxes of Ballistic Tips, one 150 and one 168 for years...
Heavy bullets work and it's hard to deviate from what we know does work.
 
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Lead thing.

I'll make Three points.

1) California did it extremely poorly by mandating non-toxic ammo. They effectively stigmatized the use of non-toxic ammo as something necessary and not desirable. Much of the headwinds regarding monolithic bullets can be laid at their doorstep, in spite of their intent. In the minds of many, monolithic bullets only exist by hostile government mandate. So much for effective public policy. There are better policy examples than California out there (happy to expand if interest).
2) I chose to shoot non-toxic initially because I feed what I take to my kids. I realize that folks who have been eating lead shot for decades have not fallen over dead yet, but that's not how lead poisoning works. The folks in Flint, Michigan didn't fall over dead when their water supply had lead in it either. Lead doesn't kill on contact, it messes with your brain. Particularly if you're a young person whose brain is still developing. So maybe you're around and just can't fill in the crossword puzzles like you used to. I'm not feeding my kids lead.
3) I initially thought I was giving something up by limiting myself to non-toxic projectiles. Thank goodness American ingenuity stepped in. It opened an avenue that not only satisfied my home needs, but actually exceeded my ballistic expectations.

I'm pretty sure I started this thread by saying I wasn't going to proselytize the use of monolithic bullets. And I'm not. The kind of effective penetration on game I've described has parallels across a broad swath of bullets. This is simply the sandbox I play in and there are many hunting-effective answers to the question.
You of course realize that lead itself is not a poison? Its lead oxide that is the poison. All of your comments above are true of Lead oxide! DR
 

joken

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I bought a Remington 700 KS in 7mm Rem Mag and couldn't get the thing to group to my satisfaction. I had about given up on it when a friend told me to try some TSX's. They made tight little groups and a 140 is an absolute hammer. I have since got a KS in 270 have only shot TTSX 130's in it. I shot a little buck with it a couple of years ago and the exit wound was cantaloupe size. I killed a nice Buck in Eastern Washington with the 7mm at 412 yards and he dropped like a rock. I'd never killed an animal that far out before and was surprised I hit him. I have quite a few other bullets now that I hope I never have to use.
 

DizzyJ

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Great information!

A few questions RE monolithics:

1) How does twist-rate play into selecting a monolithic vs cup and core bullet?

2) What kind of “accuracy” are we talking with these? I’ve been able to create extremely accurate loads with standard Bullets and have been hesitant to try these out.

3) Is there a good option for subsonics (say 300blk) where they’ll still open up and do lots of damage at reduced velocities?

4) I’ve read over and over that you need at least .050” jump with solid copper pills due to the increased pressures created as the bullet engages the lands. Is this true of all monolithic Bullets or are there exceptions to this?

Thanks and again, great thread!
 

osprey

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I can address items 1 and 3. 1: Copper being less dense than lead will require a longer projectile to attain the same weight as a comparable cup and core. Therefore a faster twist rate could be required to properly stabilize an all copper mono bullet. 3: Yes, there are several manufacturers that have all copper mono’s that are designed to open up at subsonic velocities. Maker bullets is my choice and I have had good results with the maker rex line of bullets.
 
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If you look at Hornady they have their new CX monolithic bullets that don't need the extra spacing. An is suppose to be capable of doing item 2&3 and they may not need a higher twist since they are an copper alloy mon and not just a copper mon.
 
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another question to add, Barnes suggests a range of .030" to .070" and recommends "starting at" .050", is there any compelling reason to start further back? Seems like it would be more efficient to work your way towards the lands after developing a safe pressure from the initial ladder test.
 

osprey

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Here are a couple links that kind of answer both 1and 3. For the 300 blk I would go as heavy as possible for hunting subsonic and as you can see Maker recommends a 1-7 twist for the 220gr.
https://makerbullets.com/proddetail.php?prod=308200SBLK

I personally skipped the .308 diameter offerings and use this in my 458 socom

And here again is a recovered 500gr maker rex recovered from the blacktail buck in my avatar. It was launched at 1000fps from my 458 socom and resulted in a instant death.

117818AF-3FBD-4C54-9979-BA3EFE754D8C.jpeg D3498A28-CBF9-4DD4-AD6D-07A6C050B2F6.jpeg
 
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BigGame

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1) How does twist-rate play into selecting a monolithic vs cup and core bullet?
As Osprey said, a mono of like weight to a cup & core will likely be longer, so require faster twist. Offsetting this is that, as discussed earlier, you don’t need a like weight-go lighter with the mono which reduces necessary twist. Last, some designs like the Hammer Bullets (designed to shed petals) seem according to some to perform best at higher than typical twist rates; e.g., a gyroscopic stability factor at the muzzle around 2.0 instead of 1.5. There’s discussion of this on the Hammer forum. One more twist-related difference: some feel a bullet can be over-twisted. This is a notion that largely comes from cup & core and does not really apply to monos (or is less of a concern).
2) What kind of “accuracy” are we talking with these? I’ve been able to create extremely accurate loads with standard Bullets and have been hesitant to try these out.
Accuracy is a personal judgement, and I don’t think you can generalize across all monos vs. all cup & core. But I seek to build loads that are reliably sub-MOA and have no more problem doing so with monos (I shoot Hammer Bullets) than otherwise.
4) I’ve read over and over that you need at least .050” jump with solid copper pills due to the increased pressures created as the bullet engages the lands. Is this true of all monolithic Bullets or are there exceptions to this?
This is guidance put out by Barnes. It is reasonable guidance for monos that use a harder alloy designed to function similar to Barnes and with a similar minimum performance range. For Barnes that means impact velocities of 2,200+ FPS or maybe down to 2,000+ FPS. But not all monos are like this. I’ll speak to Hammers because I know them better; others will likely chime in re. other brands. Hammers are softer and designed to perform down to impact velocities of 1,800+ FPS. People loading them (and Hammer) do not have the same guidance for jump as Barnes. When testing jump, I typically test from about 0.010 to 0.110.
Barnes suggests a range of .030" to .070" and recommends "starting at" .050", is there any compelling reason to start further back?
I don’t think it matters where you start. Keep in mind that pressure can ebb and flow across seating depths in sometimes unpredictable ways (not simply closer = more), so don’t test with a charge near max.
 

osprey

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And just for some added food for thought, the slower you are driving a bullet, the more critical a faster twist rate becomes. A bullet that is stabilized at 1500fps may just keyhole at 1000fps in the same barrel. That is why it is so important to do some close paper testing looking for clean holes before screwing that expensive suppressor on.
 
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So while we are on Monolithic, Are bullets like Barnes Varmint Grenades treated as a Mono?
I have a large stash of 36 gr VG's . They work great in a 22 Hornet, and a 223 Handi rifle. But so far not so great from a Axis in 223.
I believe the rate of twist is the same 1 in 12 in both 223's.
My first try was using a load that is proven in the Handi rifle was 25.5 gr of Ramshot TAC under the 36 gr VG bullet. in the Savage Axis it scattered them. I tried again today with 27.5 gr of TAC and was pleasantly surprised, They grouped neatly into a 1" 5 shot group at 50 yards. [ that's all I can shoot in my back yard range.]
I'm not quite down to min of Squirrel head yet! But that was an improvement! Once I find some more TAC, I may trying to push them a little faster to see if it tightens up some.

Back to the Mono bullets, I have been using them since CA made me. and have never seen any performance increase, [ over lead based bullets] Reading this Maybe I'm just not pushing them fast enough. I was pushing them to lead bullet speeds.
I have tried them in a 7mm Mag, 30-06, 30-30, 6.5x55, and 7x57 Mauser. The only one that I got any kind of performance boost from was the 30-30 loads. And they are pushed faster than any lead load I have used. So maybe you are on to something! Thanks DR
 
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