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Really Dirty Brass After First Loads of .45 ACP

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by TwinStick, Mar 23, 2014.

  1. TwinStick

    TwinStick In the wind Active Member

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    So I tested a couple new loads this morning for .45 in a few pistols. In all 3 pistols, both loads tested came out with the brass dirty with burn marks on 1 side of the top half of the brass. I'm using 200gr RN Plated bullets and Titegroup. I started out with 4.7 and 4.8 gr of powder. The load seemed a little light. Recoil was really light, but both loads cycled fine in all 3 guns.

    Is the load too light? Is the brass not expanding enough in the chamber and that's why I'm getting powder burns on the outside of the brass? Is my crimp too tight so it's not expanding enough in the chamber? Should I worry about it, or not?

    Input appreciated.

    Oh, if it matter these are all large primers and I'm using CCI's.
     
  2. evltwn

    evltwn Gold Hill Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Are you using a Berry's plated bullet, or perhaps a Rainier? A quick look at my Lymans, shows 4.8 to 5.4 of Titegroup for a lead bullet ( I know you are using plated...please bear with me) and from 4.7 to 5.3 of Titegroup for a 200 grain JHP. The general rule of thumb for plated bullets is to load them to the lower end of the jacketed range, or somewhat higher than you would for a cast bullet. You seem to be in the ballpark, and could perhaps add another grain to measure the results. Please let us know how it comes out.

    Good luck, and shoot straight.
     
  3. TwinStick

    TwinStick In the wind Active Member

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    These were Ariel Shooting Supply projectiles. I also use Xtreme Bullets

    I should probably check them through a chrono too. They grouped well, and I'd prefer to keep the lighter load for practice, but if the powder burning of the case mouth (and probably the chamber) is bad, I'll keep testing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
  4. Rusty Shackleford

    Rusty Shackleford Portland Member

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    Check your O.A.L. , and/or try 5.0 grains. Info on Extreme bullets is hard to find, try to find a similar length bullet that you can get info on and follow it's load data.
    Once O.A.L. is established make 10 rounds each of 4.8, 5.0, 5.2, and see which works best for your gun.

    This is what I do your results may very.
     
  5. TwinStick

    TwinStick In the wind Active Member

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    OAL is 1.235, I gotta make 30 of each to test in the 3 pistols, but shooting more isn't a problem for me. :) I'll try bumping up the charge. Thanks
     
  6. TwinStick

    TwinStick In the wind Active Member

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    Here's what they look like. The other half of the case mouth is clean.

    image.jpg
     
  7. kmk1012

    kmk1012 Mid Valley Member

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    I had that same thing happen in my XD tac, I bumped up the load closer to the upper limit of load data and it got significantly better.
     
  8. TwinStick

    TwinStick In the wind Active Member

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    That sounds like what I should do. Now I'm mostly curious as to why that happens. It did that in the M&P, H&K and the Para P12.

    I've now tumbled the brass and it all comes off completely, just wondering what is happening in the chamber to make it do that.
     
  9. Bxc53

    Bxc53 Arlington Wa Member

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    I use a similar target/range load with Titegroup and 200 gr x-treme bullets. My brass is a bit smoky since the pressure is not high enough to fully seal the brass to the chamber. I've loaded and shot about 1000 this way without any issue except cleaning a bit more often.
     
  10. TwinStick

    TwinStick In the wind Active Member

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    Thanks Bxc53, not only does that sound similar, that sounds exactly the same. Have you fired your loads through a chrono? What's their speed if so?

    I'll ask this also, if there is more hot gas escaping out of the chamber and toward the rear, should we worry about magazine followers or poly frames being damaged? Because I'm not worried about cleaning the gun or the brass, and I like using less powder and the light recoil. Easier on the wrists and quicker follow up shots.
     
  11. Bxc53

    Bxc53 Arlington Wa Member

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    I haven't seen any problems with my plastic 45's. I use this
    Load in my 2 1911's ,a Glock 21 and a Ruger SR45. The mag followers and nearby area gets sooty,but it basically just wipes off . I like the soft shooting for just the reasons you mention.

    I don't have a chrono, but they seem to group nicely if I'm having a good day..
     
  12. TwinStick

    TwinStick In the wind Active Member

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    Thanks again Bcx53, and the rest.
     
  13. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    You're a little towards the low/dirty end of the powder. But if it shoots good, who cares, I'd take shootability over some extra time in the tumbler every day of the week.
     
    mjbskwim likes this.
  14. MarkAd

    MarkAd Port Orchard Well-Known Member

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    your loads are light, The brass is not fully sealing the chamber and that is the source of the sootiness.
     
    Throckmorton likes this.
  15. tarster

    tarster Albany Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I know you mentioned crimping the in first post, to my knowledge you not supposed to crimp the .45 at all, its supposed to be a hard square shoulder, basically crimp it just enough so you cant easily push the bullet back in, and I load berrysmfg plated all day long, I would just bump it up and don't worry about running them to hot, you still well under 1000fps it shouldn't be an issue with the jackets separating.
     
  16. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    What are the 3 pistols, specifically?

    Nevermind found the list above. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  17. Classic

    Classic Federal Way WA Well-Known Member

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    This could be it or It could be that the crimp is so light that the bullet is being pushed out before all the powder has ignited. This will also cause soot down the side. That said Titegroup is a faster burning powder so it's more than likely your load is too light. I use AA#2 and 5.2 grains /1.25 OAL is my blend for 230 gr Xtreme RN and 5.6 AA#2 when I use 200 gr FP Xtremes @ 1.21 OAL
     
  18. Nitro 54

    Nitro 54 S.W. Oregon New Member

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    My XD leaves the same burned mark on the case using factory Winchester white box ammo.
     
  19. rutilate

    rutilate Vancouver and Surrounds Active Member

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    I know this is something of a necropost, but what did you end up doing?

    I'm shooting 4.6-4.8 gr Titegroup behind 230 gr plated bullets. Your load might be a bit underpowered for 200 gr bullets. Do you have access to a chronograph? Your ideal velocity should be in the range of 825-875 fps (from power factor calculations for 200gr). I always keep a number of powder puff loads for my wife and new shooters so they can enjoy shooting without developing a flinch or sore wrists.

    The .45 indexes on the case mouth so if you crimp too much you risk having the round slide forward while in battery.

    Having said that, I get smoked brass all the time in my S&W M&P .45. There are many different opinions online as to whether Titegroup is smoky or not, perhaps all relative to the last powder someone used before switching. I've tried adjusting charge weight up and down without effect. When I went down too far I got flecks of unburned powder blowing back into my face.
     
  20. YOURSUPREMECOMMANDER

    YOURSUPREMECOMMANDER Raleigh Hills, Or. Active Member

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    Your loads are probably too light. This is what causes the blowback, the cases are not sealing against the chamber, And since the case headspaces off the mouth, You should not crimp. If the brass has been sized to many times it might be work hardened and need to be replaced, this should increase your neck tension - and internal pressures. Of course your firing chamber might be worn out or just to big also. COL can cause radical changes in pressure an MV, so make sure it's correct - A chrono would really help also.