Rather be shot with an AK-47 than an AR-15.

[Sgt Nambu]

Um......7.62X51! Really, nuff said!

 

[Certaindeaf]

that's the stuff....love Barns ! I haven't played with the tipped yet

this is a 53gr TSX I recovered from water jugs at 100 yards shot from an AR PISTOL, 8" Ballistic Advantage barrel, and it went 3 jugs deep so.....some people post math some people shoot and reload
..

Kinda looks like the monolithic M885A1.. without the steel penetrator.. and likely going 300fps less. they hot load the bugger

 

[Flopsweat]

Kinda looks like the monolithic M885A1.. without the steel penetrator.. and likely going 300fps less. they hot load the bugger

View attachment 269728

They did juice it up a little, but it's a heavier projectile (62 g)to begin with. Just for fun, here's a chart from Guns & Ammo:

 

[Stomper]

Whoever started the debate over which preference caliber to be shot with is out of their bubblegumming mind, and/or they play WAY to much Call of Duty on the Xbox.

 

[DuneHopper]

Whoever started the debate over which preference caliber to be shot with is out of their bubblegumming mind, and/or they play WAY to much Call of Duty on the Xbox.

 

[4Freedom]

The one great thing about the 5.56 round is versatility. Comparing NATO military rounds is completely futile in the realm of home defense, where private citizens can own various types of ammunition that are forbidden by modern regulations of war rules or abiding by the irrational NATO regulations enforced on our military.


Anyhow, I would like to see how any 7.62 x 39 round will compare to a Hornady 75gr BTHP Super Performance Match round. Considering, the lack of recoil, weight, flatter trajectory and larger amount of .223/5.56 ammunition you can carry, I would even argue that these heavy 5.56 loads would be a much more efficient battle round, in addition to home defense round, than the 7.62 x 39 round. Essentially, a very heavy/hot 5.56 round can be loaded to ligher side of 6.8 specs, but with all the advantages of being a smaller and lighter round.


<broken link removed>

With an energy 1192 ft/lbs travelling at 2675fps at 100 yards, I would think this round would pack as much of a lethal punch as many 7.62 x 39 rounds would. If we put the expanding bullet technology into the equation, I would think the 5.56 round could be as an efficient man killing round as any 7.62 x 39 round.

Compare this to the ballistics of your average 7.62 x 39 rounds:
http://www.ballistics101.com/7.62x39.php

The most daunting you will find average around 1600ft/lbs travelling at 2400 ft/sec. But, then you do have to put the mechanics and trajectory of the 7.62 x 39 round into the equation and bullet expansion properties. I've been reading from various sources that there is issues with bullet expansion with the 7.62 x 39 round. Many 7.62 x 39 HP rounds actually fragment rather than expansion in human targets.

 

[oli700]

Many 7.62 x 39 HP rounds actually fragment rather than expansion in human targets.

i believe most of those bulk .310 are more or less constructed like a match round instead of a bonded expanding round ....match round work like the 75gr hpbt but just dont drive as deep
if as much time, money and tech was put into .310 projo's as is put into .224 i think they would expand as well as anything

I bet a Barnes in a 762X39 would be brutal

 

[U8395279]

The one great thing about the 5.56 round is versatility. Comparing NATO military rounds is completely futile in the realm of home defense, where private citizens can own various types of ammunition that are forbidden by modern regulations of war rules or abiding by the irrational NATO regulations enforced on our military.


Anyhow, I would like to see how any 7.62 x 39 round will compare to a Hornady 75gr BTHP Super Performance Match round. Considering, the lack of recoil, weight, flatter trajectory and larger amount of .223/5.56 ammunition you can carry, I would even argue that these heavy 5.56 loads would be a much more efficient battle round, in addition to home defense round, than the 7.62 x 39 round. Essentially, a very heavy/hot 5.56 round can be loaded to ligher side of 6.8 specs, but with all the advantages of being a smaller and lighter round.


<broken link removed>

With an energy 1192 ft/lbs travelling at 2675fps at 100 yards, I would think this round would pack as much of a lethal punch as many 7.62 x 39 rounds would. If we put the expanding bullet technology into the equation, I would think the 5.56 round could be as an efficient man killing round as any 7.62 x 39 round.

Compare this to the ballistics of your average 7.62 x 39 rounds:
http://www.ballistics101.com/7.62x39.php

The most daunting you will find average around 1600ft/lbs travelling at 2400 ft/sec. But, then you do have to put the mechanics and trajectory of the 7.62 x 39 round into the equation and bullet expansion properties. I've been reading from various sources that there is issues with bullet expansion with the 7.62 x 39 round. Many 7.62 x 39 HP rounds actually fragment rather than expansion in human targets.

The other option is to simply neck the .223/5.56 up to .243 or .257 caliber, and use larger caliber bullets. Loaded ammo is now available for the .25-45 Sharps, using a tough 87 gr Speer Hot Cor soft point spitzer.

Here are some pics from a review on AR15Hunter.com:

 

[mkwerx]

The one article about the police shooting where they were using TAP ammo... I did some reading a while back on a comparison of various 5.56 bullets - the TAP rounds suck as human stoppers - they are the same bullet used in varmint rounds. THey are designed to expend all their energy in a very short amount of space - to take out ground hogs and coyotes - not people. Standard 55 grain military ammo performed far better, as did Wolf 55 grain hollowpoint. The Barnes all copper rounds are better as they are more of a controlled expansion round and they don't blow up in 5 or 6 inches of gel.

If it came down to getting shot by TAP or other varmint round over just about any 7.62x39 round - TAP me. Might be a nasty superficial wound but probably more survivable.

A friend of mine who is po-po told me his agency issues Remington 45 grain jacketed soft points for some reason I don't see the logic in that aside from cost, and the fact that they are pretty cheap compared to other rounds billed as defensive rounds. Before I read about the negatives of TAP, I kept a 40 round p-mag loaded with the TAP rounds, but have switched back to standard green tip NATO ball rounds if the need to shoot a bad guy arises. I want to reach the vitals instead of just blowing chunks of meat off. I still have that 40 rounder full of TAP but figure I'll either expend it on water jugs, or save it for if I get the chance to go hunt some varmints. For $0.75 a round it's some expensive plinking ammo. I'm going to eventually replace it with the all copper stuff probably, but I'm in no big hurry.

 

[4Freedom]

The one article about the police shooting where they were using TAP ammo... I did some reading a while back on a comparison of various 5.56 bullets - the TAP rounds suck as human stoppers - they are the same bullet used in varmint rounds. THey are designed to expend all their energy in a very short amount of space - to take out ground hogs and coyotes - not people.

Actually, I heard about that article and people should know not all TAP rounds are created equal. The TAP rounds that posed the problem were the ballistic red tip 55gr rounds that had serious penetration and fragmentation problems. Whereas, the TAP red tip rounds would be efficient in a .308 caliber, they proved to be under-powered in the 5.56. Needless to say, I have sold off all my red tip 5.56 rounds, but kept my 308 TAP rounds handy as a home defense 308 round. The red tip 5.56 rounds are horrible for self-defense and have been proven to fragment on impact with flesh or bone and not penetrate deeply. If that article is the same I am thinking, the pepetrator was shot over a dozen times and kept coming until someone took him down with a .45 round. However, I am pretty confident, had he been shot once (or maybe twice) with 75gr BTHP round, he would have been incapacitated. Apples and Oranges. TAP is just a line of ammo and has variety of different type of loads and uses.

However, the case study that you are referring to was not performed with 75gr BTHP TAP round, which is more reminiscent of any traditional HP. The problem is that ballistic/fragmenting 5.56 rounds are inefficient for use on humans, not the TAP family of rounds as a whole. If a 75gr HP round travelling at 2700 ft/s is not good for human use, then I will say the human species is evolving to resist gun wounds faster than I perceived.

 

[Capn Jack]

It is definitely better to give than to receive...

 

[U8395279]

It is definitely better to give than to receive...

Now that sure as heck is getting aligned with the Christmas Spirit!!

 

[oli700]

If a 75gr HP round travelling at 2700 ft/s is not good for human use, then I will say the human species is evolving to resist gun wounds faster than I perceived.

no doubt, I know that 77gr Match HP is being used in the Middle East with great success in long barrels at long range(DMR, SPR) and in short barrels at shorter range(MK18).....but they are shooting people that wear rags, not ballistic armor.

 

[Certaindeaf]

no doubt, I know that 77gr Match HP is being used in the Middle East with great success in long barrels at long range(DMR, SPR) and in short barrels at shorter range(MK18).....but they are shooting people that wear rags, not ballistic armor.

Contractors?

 

[Certaindeaf]

one man who was shot 5 times by the terrorists,.

Probably didn't get shot in the head bone.. and has a lot of titanium in them leg bones.

 

[oli700]

Contractors?

no , military. I hire a lot of vets and lots of vets have lots of stories, the job is forest fires so they are young bucks fresh from the Shat .
Match isn't technically expanding ammo so they can use it, as you know the HP in match is and accuracy thing
one guy claimed to have killed an insurgent at what he says was between 100 and 150 yards with an MK18 and one single black hills 77gr HPBT that he says was a through and through ......i suspect the lead core made it
i really believe its the truth , these guys don't lie about that stuff

 

[Certaindeaf]

no , military. I hire a lot of vets and lots of vets have lots of stories, the job is forest fires so they are young bucks fresh from the Shat .
Match isn't technically expanding ammo so they can use it, as you know the HP in match is and accuracy thing
one guy claimed to have killed an insurgent at what he says was between 100 and 150 yards with an MK18 and one single black hills 77gr HPBT that he says was a through and through ......i suspect the lead core made it
i really believe its the truth , these guys don't lie about that stuff

huh, never woulda thought they'd use varmint bullets on noggins.
Speaking of sleek strikers, most all should be considered to perform as penciling fmj's.

 

[oli700]

huh, never woulda thought they'd use varmint bullets on noggins.

it is interesting
at distance what isnt well placed causes a lot of bleeding way way out because they frag at real low speed and the lead core does like an old wad cutter and keeps going

up close its the same affect but works good because again what we know about short barrels and 556. The delicate jacket works great at lower velocity and the 60gr of raw lead core does not seem to fragment, but it is soft

 

[Certaindeaf]

it is interesting
at distance what isnt well placed causes a lot of bleeding way way out because they frag at real low speed and the lead core does like an old wad cutter and keeps going

up close its the same affect but works good because again what we know about short barrels and 556. The delicate jacket works great at lower velocity and the 60gr of raw lead core does not seem to fragment, but it is soft

Yea, words.
The military does not use what you mouthed.. nevermind.

 

[oli700]

Yea, words.
The military does not use what you mouthed.. nevermind.

does not use what again ?