Questions about ES (aka dumb question time)

[daved20319]

So I consider myself a meticulous hand loader, and I do my best to make ammo that is as much the same as possible, especially with my 6.5 Creedmoor rounds. So far, all my loading for that rifle has been testing, but I literally weigh each charge twice, first with my FA dispenser, then verify it on my balance scale. I use good brass and bullets, I'm finicky with case prep, the list goes on, but I still get some large ES's, 30's and 40's aren't uncommon. That might be fine for a 200 yard hunting rifle, but I'm hoping to take this out to 1K yards someday. I know there are a LOT of other steps that can be taken, like capacity (and weight?) sorting your brass, weight and length sorting bullets, neck turning, concentricity testing, I'm sure there are others I've left out or don't know. I guess my question is, am I going to have to head down that rabbit hole to get the numbers down, or will continued testing of bullets, powders, etc. accomplish the same thing? And if I do have to head down the rabbit hole, is there any single step/technique I should add first that will give me the most for my time/money?

And BTW, my confusion is as much about the occasional really low numbers as it is about the more common double digit results. I haven't reviewed the data yet, but I had at least one load yesterday that was in the low single digits for ES and SD, but the charges on either side were significantly higher. Mystery! Appreciate any relevant thoughts or suggestions, later.

Dave

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[DizzyJ]

So I consider myself a meticulous hand loader, and I do my best to make ammo that is as much the same as possible, especially with my 6.5 Creedmoor rounds. So far, all my loading for that rifle has been testing, but I literally weigh each charge twice, first with my FA dispenser, then verify it on my balance scale. I use good brass and bullets, I'm finicky with case prep, the list goes on, but I still get some large ES's, 30's and 40's aren't uncommon. That might be fine for a 200 yard hunting rifle, but I'm hoping to take this out to 1K yards someday. I know there are a LOT of other steps that can be taken, like capacity (and weight?) sorting your brass, weight and length sorting bullets, neck turning, concentricity testing, I'm sure there are others I've left out or don't know. I guess my question is, am I going to have to head down that rabbit hole to get the numbers down, or will continued testing of bullets, powders, etc. accomplish the same thing? And if I do have to head down the rabbit hole, is there any single step/technique I should add first that will give me the most for my time/money?

And BTW, my confusion is as much about the occasional really low numbers as it is about the more common double digit results. I haven't reviewed the data yet, but I had at least one load yesterday that was in the low single digits for ES and SD, but the charges on either side were significantly higher. Mystery! Appreciate any relevant thoughts or suggestions, later.

Dave

Welcome to my world. Lol

Finding the right node (powder charge)will help immensely with this.

Then pay attention to neck tension and bullet seating depth.

I think those three things will get you the best bang for your buck.

There are a ton of rabbit holes to go down, not all of which I'm convinced make a lot of difference.

I assume you're using the same head stamp and lot# on your components and well as keeping track of how many times the brass has been fired.

Wind is usually your biggest enemy when it comes to long range and extreme long range shooting.

 

[flashpan]

Sorry to break the bad news but if you really want low ES (like single digit) you need to spend some real $$ on a scale that can weigh 2/100's of a gr every time for extreme range. Then do all the things Dizzy J mentions above also. And that rabbit hole gets deeper all the time. Enjoy

 

[Member 34319]

I've tried to get low with 223. It was a lot of testing to the point I was mostly shooting through a chronograph and not even testing the biggest factor in the equation that much anymore. Me. Best of luck with the quest. If you find enjoyment in the process, keep going deaper. If it starts getting to you, step back and enjoy what you can out of it!

 

[Certaindeaf]

An extreme spread of 30 is very good for target pistol loads.
An extreme spread of 30 from a rifle going 3x faster would have to be 90 to be equivalent to that pistol load so I'd call an ES spread of 30 from a high-powered rifle plenty good.

 

[Tikka308]

My 6.5 creed, is getting 15-9 ES.
I've shoot .17 moa at 100, 200, 300, 800. Not just a one time thing.
Weight, sort brass. Then case prep, neck turn,primer pocket work. Its 90% neck tension. Powder is the least important part of the whole process( with in .1 grain). Load the scott sultry l
10 shot load work up and load in the middle of a node. Some will agrue the powder is so important. Those people haven't loaded Scott's way. We are tryn to reproduce the same pressure. The case capacity and neck tension have a bigger value in this formula.

 

[daved20319]

Sorry to break the bad news but if you really want low ES (like single digit) you need to spend some real $$ on a scale that can weigh 2/100's of a gr every time for extreme range. Then do all the things Dizzy J mentions above also. And that rabbit hole gets deeper all the time. Enjoy

Nope, don't believe it takes that kind of precision to get single digit ES's & SD's, and the proof is in the loads I shot Tuesday. Of the 3 different batches I had loaded for my Creedmoor, one of each had one single digit SD, the third had 2. That said, I'm very picky about test loads, the dispensed load goes on my scale for verification, if it doesn't match up pretty much perfectly, I dump it and draw another. If I'm off, it's no more than .005 gr., and probably less.

So I actually did review my data yesterday, and it actually looked better than I thought. Yeah, I had a few that were close to 30, but most were in the low teens or single digits. So I think I'll stick to what I'm doing for now. Appreciate the other suggestions, guys, thanks.

Dave

 

[edzz]

Are you using gr. as an abbreviation for gram or grain?

 

[daved20319]

Grain is abbreviated gr., gram is just g.

 

[edzz]

If I'm off, it's no more than .005 gr., and probably less.

so 1/200 th of a grain?

My believer seems to be on the fritz...
Am I correct that would be 1 / 1,400,000 th of a pound?

Or is my math really that bad.

 

[Tikka308]

Are you using gr. as an abbreviation for gram or grain?

We all should be using grains.
Most if us that gr. During reloading are referring to grains.

 

[DizzyJ]

so 1/200 th of a grain?

My believer seems to be on the fritz...
Am I correct that would be 1 / 1,400,000 th of a pound?

Or is my math really that bad.

My scale is pretty precise and it only reads to .02gr

Hell a kernel of H4350 is only about that.

 

[daved20319]

My bad, guys, that should have been .05 grains, or half a tenth. Sorry about the brain fart .

Dave

 

[saxon]

es of 20 sd of 15 but its one raged hole at 200 yards..... rabbit

sd and es have as much to do as barrel maker twist rate crown etc etc ... hole

 

[Stomper]

..

 

[Stomper]

My bad, guys, that should have been .05 grains, or half a tenth. Sorry about the brain fart .

Dave

How much DOES a brain fart weigh?

 

[edzz]

How much DOES a brain fart weigh? View attachment 1019923

1.7 gaf's