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question on stances

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by mcseman441, Mar 12, 2009.

  1. mcseman441

    mcseman441 tacoma New Member

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    I have a question for some of the more experienced pistol shooters here. I've picked up some glocks and I thought I was having some feed problems with the 9MM but I think I'm limp-wristing it. While I don't completely understand that issue yet, i'm starting by trying to fix my grip/stance. So I'm seeing some conflicting instruction out there: apparrently I need to have the gun in the center of the cup between my thumb and fingers and the slide needs to line up with my elbow. This changes my grip considerably and the trigger is just a little harder to reach with my small hands so I now see why some people get grip reductions on glocks. But the conflict I have is how do you keep the gun aligned with your elbow when you grip it with 2 hands? Once the support hand comes up my wrist has to turn outward a little as I bring up the pistol in front of me to shoot. Am I misunderstanding the part about aligning it with my forearm and elbow?
     
  2. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    If you have small hands, you'll have to compensate your grip a bit to allow comfortable contact with the trigger.

    Most people I find do not grip the gun properly to take advantage of the skeletal structure, and getting it in use for recoil control.

    I will post some pics later, showing proper grip, and support hand grip. Its not rocket science, so don't over analyze it.

    Grip and stance are important, but in the overall picture of shooting it's down the list a bit.

    Trigger control, sight alignment, trigger control, sight picture, and there's one other thing.....hmmmm......on the tip of my tongue......oh yes....trigger control, are the big 3 of shooting.

    In keeping everything aligned, it's a matter of your body position as well. Straight on to the target, will be harder to achieve what you're looking for vs. turning the torso just a bit.
     
  3. elsullo

    elsullo Portland Oregon New Member

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    This debate over "stance" used to fill shooting magazine literature endlessly decades ago. The Isocalese (sp?) Stance has the body face-on to the target with both feet on the same line, and both hands together sort of "punch" the gun forward to shoot. Yes, it's very awkward for the wrists, but at the time it was a big improvement over one-handed shooting.

    The Weaver Stance has won just about everybody over for two-handed shooting. This has the body turned away from the target by about thirty degrees. The shooting arm is relatively straight and the support arm is bent; the shooting-side foot is turned out a bit and back a foot or so from the support-side foot. The support hand is wrapped AROUND the shooting hand, not cupped under it. Ignore whatever you see in television dramas! This keeps the shooting wrist stronger and more straight with the arm for better control and recoil absorbtion.

    The key is to turn the body slightly away from the target with the shooting arm back and straight, and the other arm bent and supporting. Like the guy said, "It's not rocket science." Just keep shooting a bunch and it will make more sense..........................elsullo
     
  4. Gooch

    Gooch Olympia New Member

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  5. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    I think the stance thing is a bit over rated...I tell people to get in their best fighting stance, and that puts them in a good soild stance to shoot.
     
  6. oldkim

    oldkim Kent, WA New Member

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    Wichaka,

    I'm with you on the stance issue. One thing to keep in mind is what type of shooting your are doing. If you are doing Bullseye vs rapid tactical (competition). Basically, if you are shooting from a bench vs out and about. One handed vs two handed.

    Basics of a good grip, sight picture and trigger control. Stance is way down on the list but it is on the list. Other factors like eye dominance, one or two eyes open and body position will also influence what type of shooting stance will work best for you.

    So, there are many factors - you'll just have to play around and do some research like the post above mentions and try them out and see what works for you. One does not fit everyone. We're all different.
     
  7. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    Yep...what he said....
     
  8. oldkim

    oldkim Kent, WA New Member

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    I see many people put breathing high on their list. Although I agree to some point... it's more crucile for bullseye shooters or for those shooters that want to slowly put 3-5 rounds as small as they can.

    For pistol shooting, especially, action pistol shooting breath control is very low on the priority list of what you need to do to hit your target. Unlike rifle or bullseye shooters there is no 3 point of contact with the firearm - it's usually one or two hands only. You'll use your arms to act as shock absorbers and keep your muzzle on target.

    It all goes back to basics of a good solid grip (hold), sight picture and trigger control.

    They all factor in there somewhere but depending on what type of shooting and how you are shooting will dictate how important they are.

    You can always try pointing a laser pen on the opposite wall and start walking. Learning how to walk and shoot becomes another important aspect to consider when looking at the action sports of shooting.
     
  9. Redrum

    Redrum Portlandia Active Member

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    limp wristing has nothing to do with stance and everything to do with grip. first you need to make sure your hand and forearm are in shape..its called limp wristing because your grip is not strong enuff

    try one of these:

    http://www.powerballs.com/index.php?m=Home

    or get a 10 lb dumbell and hold it out in front of you while your watching TV...try to keep it as steady as possible and see if you can hold it up throught the commercials.

    next make sure when you hold the pistol that you have the web of your shooting hand as far up on the backstap as you can get it..moving it down makes it harder to hold and increases the "limp wrist" effect....sometimes it helps (with glocks) to put both your thumbs together side by side and point them as straight up as you can along the slide (dont worry it wont hurt you when you fire) kind of next to the slide lock (for referance) when your shooting 2 handed...but try shooting one handed first and see if you can get some jams...thats a sure sign its your wrist strength..esp if they dont happen in the beginning but happen at the end of a mag (cause you hands getting tired)

    you must have really short fingers to not reach the trigger on a 9mm glock..most people only grip reduce the double stack 45 (glock 21).. remember its the tip of the index finger that goes right on the trigger safety dont go in deep to the first joint.

    also remember 25 rounds done right in 10 minutes is better than 250 done wrong all day.

    you also may want to look into a handgun with an adjustable backstap like a Walther, Springfield XD or S&W M&P. all of which are excellent pistols and work very well for people with small hands or short fingers.
     
  10. GED

    GED North Idaho Active Member

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    RIP Jack Weaver 1928-2009:

    http://www.gunsandhunting.com/JackWeaver.html
     
  11. Aristotle13

    Aristotle13 Kent, WA Member

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    The weaver stance is basically non existent in the competition shooting world. The only guys that use weavers anymore in competition are newbies.
    Using a proper grip with the isocolese makes all of the difference in the world. I use the thumbs forward grip. The key to a good grip is a locked support hand and proper grip distribution. Too many people milk the grip, aka death grip the gun with their support hand. I use a 75/25 grip, 75% on my support hand, 25% on my strong hand.

    XDGrip001.jpg

    XDGrip002.jpg

    Another thing I see a lot of newbie shooters do is put too much thumb on the gun. The thumbs of your hand have nothing to do with the grip, they are just their along for the ride. Having my support thumb along the frame ensures my wrists are locked.

    Another key point in having a proper grip is getting your strong hand as far up the frame as possible. If you are not getting an occassional slide bite, you aren't trying hard enough. I absolutley bury the webing of my hand into the beavertail. Here's my grip on my 1911.

    chambering.jpg