question about the my situation of transfering a firearm back to my home of record

[Mark W.]

OK I'm back in this for only one question of wired Where can a member of the armed forces buy a handgun if their permanent duty station is on a ship? Or is at a Base outside the territory of the USA?

What you seam to be saying is that they would not be able to buy a firearm within the USA?

 

[wired]

Sailors are not based on a ship. They are based on a naval base for PDS . If its in the US they can purchase the gun locally or if overseas at the local base exchange. My son is stationed in Idaho. He will be deploying to Afghanistan. His PDS will still be Idaho and his orders will reflect that. He can buy a handgun in Idaho or a long gun in any state. At permanent duty stations overseas there are PX or BX gun shops such as rod and gun clubs that servicemembers can purchase firearms at IF the Status of Forces agreements allow it.

 

[techieguy]

Because the Gun Control Act deals only with guns. Stop guessing and start reading. They pay tax in the state they sign up in because everything else is covered in a different law. Same with voting and finances and all the other stuff a service member does. Much of that is covered under the Servicemembers Relief Act. The ATF makes provisions for living in a different state because they understand that some bases are close proximity to other states and there will be service members doing that and that many of those bases or on multiple states such as the example given Ft Benning and others . Because of the wording of 18 USC 921b though they cant just give a blanket " buy handguns wherever you want including your home state. Residency to the ATF is actual residency and not home of record residency. Not also the ATF does not allow for TDY or extended transfers when on other bases. They require the Permanent Duty Station only be the location of residence with a allowance for living near the post..


For the purposes of this chapter, a
member of the Armed Forces on active
duty is a resident of the State in which his
permanent duty station is located.

And if the service member is station overseas, the service member cannot purchase a firearm (in his/her home state) the way you are interpting the law... Because he is no longer a resident of his home of record? I just want to see if I understand what you are saying.

 

[wired]

And if the service member is station overseas, the service member cannot purchase a firearm (in his/her home state) the way you are interpting the law... Because he is no longer a resident of his home of record? I just want to see if I understand what you are saying.

What does the 4473 say ? In the instructions for question 13? What does the GCA say in 18USC 921(b)? What does the ATF FAQ say concerning residency? The law says that residency is based on Permanent Duty Station status and does not state anywhere that home of record state remains for residency requirements. Can you point to a statute or ATF ruling or FAQ that says otherwise? I'd love to see it. Rifles and shotguns anywhere. Handguns in state of residency. PLEASE cite regs to the contrary.


FWIW . When I was stationed overseas, I bought them overseas. Or more specifically at my permanent duty station USAREUR.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

Well, Ok, you believe whatever you want to believe, and the rest of us can follow the law....

 

[wired]

Well, Ok, you believe whatever you want to believe, and the rest of us can follow the law....

Please cite the law.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

Please cite the law.

The problem you are having, wired, is that GIs get to do something that no one else in the country gets to do, and that is purchase a handgun in a state other than their state of residence. This is an exception to law, and easy to understand since it says, right there in the law "for the purposes of the GCA..."

Now, if you want to know all about a GI's home of residency, you have to read the Serviceman's Civil Relief Act (2003) which updated the previous law... You are confusing domicile and residence. Under the law, a serviceman's domicile (home of record) is considered where he was living when he entered active duty, hence they pay taxes to that state. They can reside where ever the military sends them....

 

[wired]

The problem you are having, wired, is that GIs get to do something that no one else in the country gets to do, and that is purchase a handgun in a state other than their state of residence. This is an exception to law, and easy to understand since it says, right there in the law "for the purposes of the GCA..."

Now, if you want to know all about a GI's home of residency, you have to read the Serviceman's Civil Relief Act (2003) which updated the previous law... You are confusing domicile and residence. Under the law, a serviceman's domicile (home of record) is considered where he was living when he entered active duty, hence they pay taxes to that state. They can reside where ever the military sends them....

Its not me thats confusing anything. "For the purposes of the GCA" means just that. It means that for the purposes of purchasing firearms. The SCRA has nothing to do with firearms. It deals with taxes and finances and voting and all that . The GCA covers firearms and in the GCA the servicemember is considered a resident of his duty station state without being still considered a home of record resident. It is very clearly spelled out in 18USC921(b). No mention is made anywhere in the law that for the purposes of purchasing a handgun the servicemember remains a resident of his home of record state. Its just not there. What is there is very concise language detailing the the servicemember is a resident of his assigned PDS state. Domicile is not a question on the 4473. Residency is questioned and question #13 has instructions for the servicemember on what to answer. Read the form. No one does.


I completely understand your point. It makes sense that the servicemeber would be allowed to buy a handgun in his home state. Unfortunately thats not what the law says and if someone can show in the law where it does say that PLEASE cite it so I can shut the bubblegum up about this. As I am sure you realize firearms laws often do not make sense or at least what would seem like common sense. This is one of those situations.

 

[Mark W.]

Wired reread your Post #14 in this thread. I think the problem is you seam to have forgot what the word ALSO means. It states in the line 13 rules that:


If an individual is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty, His or Her State of residence is ALSO the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located.

IT DOES NOT SAY OR

In order for there to be an ALSO does there not have to be more then ONE STATE OF RESIDENCE??????

 

[wired]

Lets read the ATF FAQ about what residency is...

"Q: What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member's permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, "Sales to Aliens in the United States," in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]"

At the bottom we can see a few references. 18 U.S.C. 921 (b) stands out in particular. Take some time to read 18USC921 sometime. Its a great read. Its a list of definitions concerning firearms and people who use them. You learn all kinds of interesting things reading 18USC921....

18 U.S.C. 921(b) For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed
Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his
permanent duty station is located.

Thats all. No reference to home of record. Nowhere. One residency if the servicemember is living in his PDS state and two if he lives in an adjacent state and commutes to work each day.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/921

 

[wired]

A post from another forum....

Arizona's purchase laws for visitors. - THR

Code of Federal Regulations
<broken link removed>
27 CFR 478.11:
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located.

According to Code of Federal Regulations, there are one of two things required to be considered a resident of a state:

1. PRESENCE in a state with an intention of making a home in that state.

and/or

2. PERMANENT orders to a state for active duty military members.

Where your HOR is, where your driver's license is from, where you are registered to vote, or where you pay or don't pay taxes has NO BEARING on residency! Physical presence in a state with intention of living there is required. If I have permanent orders to CT and I live in MA and commute every day to work, then I meet both definitions of state of residence and I have two. I can legally buy guns in either CT or MA, but still cannot buy guns in Wyoming!

My HOR and driver's license is Wyoming. I have been physically present in Wyoming a total of about 3 weeks in the last 10 years. I cannot LEGALLY walk into an FFL with my Wyoming driver's license and buy a handgun as a Wyoming resident. I cannot LEGALLY buy a gun from a private party in Wyoming.

Would an FFL sell me a handgun based on my Wyoming driver's license? YES. (depending on the address on my driver's license) Would it be a legal transaction? NO. If I were to purchase a gun from an FFL in Wyoming with my Wyoming driver's license, I have committed a Felony because I have lied on the 4473 form saying my state of residence is Wyoming, which is not true. I have then violated 18 USC 922 (a)(6).

Again, the Federal regulation posted above says NOTHING about where your HOR is or where your Driver's license is from. It requires physical presence in a state intending to live there and/or permanent orders to a state.

 

[Mark W.]

Well at Christmas when my son bought his handgun here in Oregon he was physically present in the state and he intended to live here until he returned to CA at the end of his leave.

So I guess he was covered. Especially since the ATF said he could purchase the thing.

 

[wired]

Well at Christmas when my son bought his handgun here in Oregon he was physically present in the state and he intended to live here until he returned to CA at the end of his leave.

So I guess he was covered. Especially since the ATF said he could purchase the thing.

That is not what the law says. You can justify it how you want but if you want him to avoid security clearance problems in the future you (he) would do best to walk a fine line. The agent you spoke to either did not understand the law himself or did not fully understand your situation before giving you erroneous permission to break federal firearms laws. Getting advice on the phone is not being "covered".

Seriously. You can think I'm a prick if you like but nothing I have said is not factual. Voluntary leave is not a permanent change of station and is not reflected as so on his orders. Lots of people unwittingly commit felonies when it comes to firearms laws and occasionally they get caught and sometimes they get prosecuted or end up with felony arrest records that can cause issues in their military careers.

 

[NavyLT]

wired is exactly correct concerning Federal laws and residency for the purposes of firearms transactions.

I have a Wyoming driver's license. My military home of record is Wyoming. My state taxes (which are zero) are Wyoming. My voting registration is Wyoming. It would be completely illegal for me to buy any firearm from a private party in Wyoming and illegal for me to receive a handgun from an FFL in Wyoming because I am not a resident of Wyoming for the purposes of the GCA of 1968.

If I return to Wyoming on leave - I am NOT present in Wyoming with the intent of making a home there - therefore I am NOT a resident of Wyoming even though I am present in Wyoming with a Wyoming driver's license.

I have permanent orders to Washington state and my home that I go to every night is in Washington state, therefore, according to Federal Law, the GCA of 1968, for purchasing firearms I am a resident of Washington ONLY.

If I had permanent orders to Washington, and I lived across the border in Oregon, or had a second home in Oregon that I lived in on the weekends, then according to Federal law, the GCA of 1968, I would be a resident of Washington because of my permanent duty orders to Washington AND a resident of Oregon due to my presence in Oregon with the intention of making a home there. In that case it would STILL be completely be illegal for me to receive firearms in Wyoming (except for a rifle from an FFL) because I would still NOT be a Wyoming resident just because of my driver's license, home of record, and voting there.

The Federal law regarding residency is one of the clearest and simplest firearms laws to read and understand.

Even both the state of Washington AND the state of Wyoming governments understand this concept because my Wyoming driver's license has my Washington address on it as does my Washington State Issued ID Card!

 

[wired]

Its one of those things that is really hard for people to understand because on the surface it sounds so absurd and they get very defensive about it because everyone knows someone who came home on leave and bought a handgun or they did it themselves. Problem was it isnt legal now and wasnt legal then but unless you really check into the law you arent going to know it. You get so used to your "home of record" meaning something in the military and when you go to fill out that 4473 and it asks for your resident state its natural to assume you are a resident of your home of record.

No one reads the instructions.

 

[x1hunter89]

thank you all for the replys i brought it back and yes it was a ets i have orders bringing me back to my home of record and releasing me out of the army so i think and hope im good i will be goin to get my unarmed and armed dpsst cert soon and will be using my glock 17 so im gonna ask the instrucotor too just to make sure lol just dont wanna get in trouble but ive always had a oregon license and i understand the whole military and residency now just wanted to make sure i was good again thanks all

 

[wired]

You can bring whatever you already have into the state. No restrictions.