Washington Question about shipping a rifle from Washington

[Sporting Systems]

1639 makes it illegal to sell a semi auto rifle to a non resident of WA. No exclusions for dealers, wholesalers, individuals, or family. Its the cornerstone of the current 1639 lawsuit in Federal court.

 

[mad ox]

Getting TECHNICAL here......

I note that, your question #1, was about a WA resident selling a shotgun/rifle to another WA resident in a what is normally called a PVT SALE.

Note that the FTF PVT SALE (without the involvement of an FFL) is no longer OK in WA.

Start by making assumptions....
I assume we are talking about both parties being non-prohibited persons.
I assume that the firearms are not under some "special" Federal category of firearm (like NFA).
I assume that the person taking possession, if it's an assault rifle, is over 21 years of age (I-1639)

Well.......to assume too much may just be making an.......

Rrrright.....
ASSUME = ______ out of U and ME.

Thus I didn't want to hazard an answer. Sorry.

Aloha, Mark

PS.... if it were the simple question of the PVT SALE with both buyer and seller as WA residents? The simple answer would be, YES, the transfer must involve the services of an FFL.

LOL....but then, it doesn't mean that the seller would ever have to actually meet the buyer in person. Or that the seller would actually have to actually meet the FFL either. What?

Yeah....the seller places a classified ad. The buyer agrees on a price with the seller. Money is sent to the buyer. The seller transports (say via mail) a shotgun/rifle to the buyer's FFL. And, the buyer picks up his/her purchase at the FFLs place of business. Rrrright.....the seller never had to actually "appear" in front of the FFL (or in front of the seller for that matter).

Yes in WA private sales must be via FFL. The seller can ship the firearm to the FFL. An FFL is allowed to accept shipments from private parties however some FFLs will not do this. I do as long as there is a copy of a government issued photo ID. If there are issues firearm being stolen, the buyer is out of luck. For me it is the buyer's responsibility to deal with that. The transfer process for myself as an FFL does not address stolen firearms and we are not required to check that. With that being said, I have at my own discretion have had SN run by my local PD if something looked out of place. I have refused transfers even though they passed the NICS federal check. If something looks out of place, I again run the buyer through local PD even if not required.

One thing that seems to be misunderstood is that I do not have to have possession of the firearm during the background check waiting process on a PRIVATE sale. The ATF is quite clear on this and from their website anyone can download a flow chart showing the ATF's recommended process for an FFL to facilitate private sales. I would though have to inspect the firearm 1st if it requires the WA state transfer application to verify the SN. After verifying SN my standard and recommended process is I return to firearm to the seller and advise them I will contact them when the clearance comes in. The information on the Federal 4473 section D, the firearm description, is not required to be completed while running a check for private sales. This is per ATF guidance on private sales.

One thing to keep in mind from the previous paragraph is that when the clearance comes in, the seller must return to my shop to give me the firearm. They cannot just meet the buyer and hand off. If they do this, my records will show the transfer is incomplete and if something comes up they both would be in violation of state laws.

 

[gmerkt]

That being said.....as a Non-FFL, I've found it cheaper, to take my handgun(s) to my FFL Dealer (even w/ his fee) and have the handgun(s) shipped via the USPS, registered mail and insured. YMWV.

This is exactly the process that I use when selling a handgun out of state. On Gunbroker, for example. I charge $40 shipping. My shipping FFL dealer takes care of shipping, he charges between $40 and $50 which includes running the gun through his books. So I usually have to eat a small amount of that, as the $40 I get for shipping won't quite cover all of it. But I do that because $40 seems to be about the customary amount charged at present. There are always costs of doing business, like the GB fee, for example. You can't expect to squeeze every last penny out of a transaction and still get timely sales.

BTW, the US Postal Service does NOT recognize a C&R Lic. (Collector Lic.), as being the same thing as an FFL (Dealer Lic.).

I didn't know this, thanks for the insight.

In the end, there is nothing that would actually prevent someone from packing up a handgun, going to UPS, not tell them it is a firearm and shipping it to a buddy in New York City. Yes it's illegal. Contrary to what gun control people say, laws do not "PREVENT" criminal activity. You actually have to break them 1st.

Very true. Just like the straw buyer thing. There are enough packages that get ripped open for whatever reason that it wouldn't be impossible to get caught at this. First time a loose firearm shows up on the culling belt, the supervisor is gonna call the Postal Inspection Service. Or these days, not on a manual sorting belt but more apt to happen in a mechanized system. "The machines did it."

US Priority Mail goes mostly be commercial air transportation. I don't know this, but I wonder at the possibility of packages being xrayed for security purposes. If only at random, maybe.

Ammunition is another thing that is prohibited in the mails. It might be tempting for someone selling it on Gunbroker or similar to just pop it in a Priority Mail Flat Rate box and mail it. Rather than going to the trouble and extra expense of shipping it by UPS as an ORM-D surface package. BUT: Here is the Biggie. What if the sender were just unlucky enough to have his mailed box of ammo on an airliner that later blew up in mid-air?? They'd look through all that wreckage, find the Priority Mail box, see his address label. Dum-dee-dum-dum. What a spoiled mess of fish that would be. Not saying the ammo would blow up, but in my imagined unlikely scenario the explosion had another cause. But the ammo was found to be aboard.

Or say your package was xrayed at random and they discovered the ammo in it before it was loaded on a commercial airliner. You could be in some trouble just for this without the crash scenario. "Endangerment" on a federal scale.

Yeah....the seller places a classified ad. The buyer agrees on a price with the seller. Money is sent to the buyer. The seller transports (say via mail) a shotgun/rifle to the buyer's FFL. And, the buyer picks up his/her purchase at the FFLs place of business. Rrrright.....the seller never had to actually "appear" in front of the FFL (or in front of the seller for that matter).

This is what we'd have to do between a wet-side and an east side WA (for example) resident now. That is, if we didn't want to drive maybe two or three hundred miles one way.

BUT....my paragraph that you copied was about the seller (person doing the shipping or the transferor). Oooops....I forgot about the possible case.....where the lawyer is a convicted FELON or has been convicted of DV.

I'm still trying to understand this point. Do you mean a crook who was selling stolen guns out of state and was shipping them through FFL dealers for delivery to legit. buyers? Well, this has probably happened. A crook could just go ahead and do it himself on his own ID, the shipping FFL dealer doesn't do a BGC on the seller. So I guess you could call this a loop-hole. Does this happen very often? I don't know.

As to a lawyer being involved in this, too much potential downside for not enough money.

Or maybe it's a gun owner who became a felon while owning guns and he now needs to liquidate them. I'm not an attorney myself, but likely there is a mechanism of law whereby a lawyer could have legal power of attorney for a court ordered disposal process. I imagine this has happened. But using an attorney for this would get expensive quickly; probably most such cases involve a simple forfeiture to the court. A big, valuable collection could warrant it.

In these scenarios, there is only so much a reasonable person can know. In these kinds of dealings a reasonable, law-abiding person just has to make their best effort to comply with all laws. This is probably why some FFL dealers won't take transactions through their books from private persons. They want to eliminate as much as they can of what they cannot know with certainty.

 

[Member 38805]

"mad ox said:
In the end, there is nothing that would actually prevent someone from packing up a handgun, going to UPS, not tell them it is a firearm and shipping it to a buddy in New York City. Yes it's illegal. Contrary to what gun control people say, laws do not "PREVENT" criminal activity. You actually have to break them 1st."

Although there is nothing stopping people from breaking the law by sending a handgun via any shipper, that doesn't make it legal or sensible. Considering the consequences those involved are risking, and what it could cost them, it's enough to make most people choose not to break the law.
I think most firearms laws carry stiff enough penalties, and loss of freedom to encourage honest gun owners not to chance breaking the law.

 

[Sporting Systems]

The letter of the law, read it carefully....

You cannot SELL, transfer or deliver a SAR to a non resident of WA. Doesn't differentiate against individuals or businesses.

Don't believe me, fine. The Second Amendment Foundation and the NRA do, and have supported our lawsuit challenging this provision of the law. Its in the 9th Circuit Court of appeals now.

Now, is it being enforced, not in the slightest. 1639 isn't about enforcement, its about obstacles, delays, fees, just making it harder and more expensive to purchase. I594 isn't enforced either, its just another obstacle and roadblock.

 

[jbett98]

Just curious, does using shipmygun.com help with this issue at all being they are owned by buds gun shop or is that irrelevant I wonder?

Ship My Gun has a "Preferred FFL" list that has already been vetted that are willing to accept private party shipments.
If the buyer doesn't choose an FFL that's on the preferred list, it delays the shipping label process and SMG has to contact the FFL and ask them if they will accept a private party shipment and also check out their current FFL license.