Washington Question about shipping a rifle from Washington

[gmerkt]

Thank you for all the replies. I looked through I-1639, couldn't find anything that addressed out of state commerce. Well, sometimes there's the thing where nothing is said about a subject, therefore it's okay. I have a couple of AR's that I want to sell, thought I'd list them here in the classifieds. Somebody in Oregon might be interested, hence the question.

When I've sold long guns out of state before, I've used US Postal Service. Always determining in advance if the FFL involved actually would accept from private individuals. Which can be an issue. To do so is entirely at their own discretion as a business. Some have asked for a copy of my driver's license.

I've sold a number of handguns lately. Many out of state where markets are better than here in Wash. I have an FFL dealer send them, he uses USPS. He simply puts them in a Priority Mail medium flat rate box. This surely gets around the common carrier noise about using an expensive next day service. Whatever method used, insure everything.

 

[mad ox]

That does not make it OK. By using the license, she is representing herself as a dealer or his representative. One can not delegate the responsibility - other than to employees under their supervision - who would be listed as employees and a user of the license. That entails a background check to add them to the license. Also the fact that the shipper includes the FFL license means that the item has been entered into their books - from a legitimate source.

Correct on USPS handgun. On the license per ATF rules, anyone "added" to a license is co-owner and has full authority over the license. Employees or agents only need written permission of the FFL outlining their duties. The FFL is still responsible. For example, the shipping dept employees of a large online retail shop are not "added" to a license. They store may require background checks as condition of employment

 

[User 1234]

I also prefer to pay a local FFL dealer to mail guns for me.

 

[sl93z]

Question for Mad Ox, and any others with sure knowledge on this to see if I understand WA rules correctly. I am only using shotgun/rifle because I already know the answer on handguns.

1. True of False: If WA resident is selling a shotgun/rifle in WA to another WA resident both must appear at the FFL and transfer the gun through the FFL--no direct person-to-person sales allowed.

2. True of False: If WA resident is selling a shotgun/rifle to a buyer in another state it can be shipped directly from WA resident to an FFL in the other state who then logs it in his books, does the background check on the purchaser, and transfers ownership to the purchaser in his state.

3. True of False: If a Moscow, ID resident wants to purchase shotgun/rifle just over the state line in Pullman, WA and travels to Pullman to get it both buyer and seller must meet at an FFL, undergo background checks, then transfer ownership through FFL. ID resident can then take shotgun/rifle back home to ID.

4. True of False: Pullman, WA resident wants to sell a shotgun to a Moscow, ID resident. Gun can be hand carried by the WA owner from WA to ID and then be sold directly, person-to-person, no FFL needed, to the ID resident just as if an ID resident was selling to another ID resident.

Please enlighten me.

 

[User 1234]

^^ Depends. Is the rifle semi automatic? Are any of the guns curios or relics under federal law? Does buyer in any scenarios have a current C&R FFL or any type of FFL? Are any buyers and sellers immediate family?

 

[308Tom]

Correct on USPS handgun. On the license per ATF rules, anyone "added" to a license is co-owner and has full authority over the license. Employees or agents only need written permission of the FFL outlining their duties. The FFL is still responsible. For example, the shipping dept employees of a large online retail shop are not "added" to a license. They store may require background checks as condition of employment

You are right, I was thinking of a much smaller organization.

 

[sl93z]

No blood relations, no C&R; just two honest and upright citizens. Lets say it's a garden variety Rem 870 or Ruger 10/22.

 

[CountryGent]

No, it is actually illegal for a person to use the US Postal Service to mail a handgun unless they have a dealer or manufacturer FFL. 18 USC 1715. 18 U.S. Code § 1715 - Firearms as nonmailable; regulations

See also the US Postal Service's website:

View attachment 699639

Indeed. (And I found even with my 01FFL in hand, getting the completely clueless individuals at the local USPS to read and understand their own regulations was a chore that involved multiple phone calls and visits. They finally got it. )

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Thank you for all the replies. I looked through I-1639, couldn't find anything that addressed out of state commerce. Well, sometimes there's the thing where nothing is said about a subject, therefore it's okay. I have a couple of AR's that I want to sell, thought I'd list them here in the classifieds. Somebody in Oregon might be interested, hence the question.

When I've sold long guns out of state before, I've used US Postal Service. Always determining in advance if the FFL involved actually would accept from private individuals. Which can be an issue. To do so is entirely at their own discretion as a business. Some have asked for a copy of my driver's license.

I've sold a number of handguns lately. Many out of state where markets are better than here in Wash. I have an FFL dealer send them, he uses USPS. He simply puts them in a Priority Mail medium flat rate box. This surely gets around the common carrier noise about using an expensive next day service. Whatever method used, insure everything.

Just curious, does using shipmygun.com help with this issue at all being they are owned by buds gun shop or is that irrelevant I wonder?

 

[ma96782]

Question for Mad Ox, and any others with sure knowledge on this to see if I understand WA rules correctly. I am only using shotgun/rifle because I already know the answer on handguns.

1. True of False: If WA resident is selling a shotgun/rifle in WA to another WA resident both must appear at the FFL and transfer the gun through the FFL--no direct person-to-person sales allowed.

2. True of False: If WA resident is selling a shotgun/rifle to a buyer in another state it can be shipped directly from WA resident to an FFL in the other state who then logs it in his books, does the background check on the purchaser, and transfers ownership to the purchaser in his state.

3. True of False: If a Moscow, ID resident wants to purchase shotgun/rifle just over the state line in Pullman, WA and travels to Pullman to get it both buyer and seller must meet at an FFL, undergo background checks, then transfer ownership through FFL. ID resident can then take shotgun/rifle back home to ID.

4. True of False: Pullman, WA resident wants to sell a shotgun to a Moscow, ID resident. Gun can be hand carried by the WA owner from WA to ID and then be sold directly, person-to-person, no FFL needed, to the ID resident just as if an ID resident was selling to another ID resident.

Please enlighten me.

There are many laws (Fed, State, both states actually, and even county or city ordinances) that could affect the sale/transfer of firearms. If violated.....ALL the laws could lead to a prosecution (assuming that a prosecutor wanted to).

So then......
Start with, both parties needs to be or should be, a "non-prohibited person" to even consider going forward. OK, Ok, ok.....monkey wrench example: a recently convicted felon could actually have someone else represent their interest (like say: a lawyer). Note that I didn't mention, who actually has possession of the firearms at that point. SEE.....it's not like I could or should give advice with that monkey wrench thrown into the simple question/example.

Rrrrright....a felon can own a gun. But can't be in actual possession of a gun. Ooops.....then what about someone who was given a "State Pardon"?

OMG.....such a stickler for details.

Yup.....and yet you're asking for advice on the internet? LOL.

IMHO.....start with.....
A little reading of the FED Law (check the BATF's FAQs). *Then, also read your ID laws (assuming that you are a resident of ID). Not to mention....that the WA State (or the other party's State laws) laws must also be adhered to. AND THEN, if they are any....also include the County and City laws. Note that, a lot of people just don't want to even consider selling/transferring firearms to residents of certain States or Cities. So then.....not knowing everything......I'd say that for me to give advice to you would be foolish and for you to ask? Cough, cough.....

Simple/general answers, YES and NO (true or false)...... if given and NOT knowing the entire situation, could be dangerous. Hint : ask the FFL.

It frequently happens here and with other topics. Note the many other past posts on "shipping firearms". Someone seems to always come by to "correct" or "add more" to those simple questions and answers that could throw a monkey wrench into things (with just a little twist involved).

*Jeez....I forgot to mention the military person assigned to duty in "other states" and their exemptions.

Aloha, Mark

 

[ilikegunspdx]

A related q, when mailing a firearm, how do u ensure you don't get scammed like this where he contested multiple gun sales (so he didn't have to pay for them) after getting the firearms? scammers are the lowest form of life on earth. Or at least tied with politicians anyway.

Other State - Man Arrested with 90 Firearms and 20+k Ammo

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/south-carolina/articles/2020-05-05/atf-man-in-possession-of-90-guns-researched-mass-killings

www.northwestfirearms.com

 

[gmerkt]

Start with, both parties needs to be or should be, a "non-prohibited person" to even consider going forward. OK, Ok, ok.....monkey wrench example: a recently convicted felon could actually have someone else represent their interest (like say: a lawyer).

Well, isn't this what background checks are supposed to be about? If I ship the firearm to an FFL dealer, it's on them to do the BG check. And, if a straw purchase takes place, that's against the law. But it isn't one that I, as a seller in another state have broken or have any control over. That's somebody else's look-out.

A related q, when mailing a firearm, how do u ensure you don't get scammed like this where he contested multiple gun sales (so he didn't have to pay for them) after getting the firearms?

This is squishy territory for me. Personally, I won't buy a firearm from a distance like that. No. 1, I can't personally examine it. No. 2, the "trust thing." However, as a seller I've had no issues finding out-of-state buyers for stuff. Who are willing to trust. When a transaction goes through Gunbroker or similar, there is at least some record of the transaction. Using Armslist, no such thing. I am an honest individual, it's been said that I understate condition and that's intentional. I'd rather have my buyer get a pleasant surprise than the other way around. I don't want to deal with the hassle of a return, plain and simple. "Better than described," that's what I want to hear. I'm not a dealer, I'm slowly liquidating my own personal goods, I already have adequate funds and have no need to fleece people out of their money.

BUT: For example, I just sold my last Colt .38 Super to a gentleman in Texas by way of Armslist. My Armlist listings say no shipping but I do it anyway sometimes when people ask. Just today I took it up to my shipping FFL dealer and sent it off. The buyer and I have exchanged email, a few phone calls. I guess I must sound honest and forthright because he sent me a beautiful, green US Postal money order by mail. No signature required. But I would've never done that, I'm too risk averse. And I hope this guy doesn't get burned some day down the road by trusting a crook the way he trusted me.

As a private seller on Armslist, I only take USPS money orders. Not any other kind of money order or bank check. No wire transfers. No PayPal for firearms. I won't ship until I have a copy of the FFL from the receiving dealer, one that I can check myself online with the ATF site that the paper is good and not dummied up. I even look on Google Earth to see the dealer's premises.

Some people won't buy something unless they can pay with a credit card. Which gives them a record of payment and some recourse if things go sour. I'm sure some people browsing on Gunbroker won't buy my stuff for this reason. Perfectly understandable. I had one guy committed to buy, then wouldn't pay because he didn't see the words "sorry no CC for payment." I had to reverse the sale and get my fees back. I don't care if they won't buy for this reason; eventually someone else will. As I said, this isn't a business for me.

I don't know how the guy in SC claimed he didn't receive a firearm from an FFL dealer, then kept the firearm and the money. The dealer would have a record of the delivery, wouldn't they? And the article stated he did this through multiple dealers. I guess it's possible that he was in cahoots with them all. But somehow the ATF found out so he couldn't have been that clever.

 

[Member 38805]

I am a WA licensed FFL. USPS, FedEx, and UPS will all ship firearms FROM private individuals TO FFLs or to factories for repairs. USPS only ships handguns, UPS only long guns and FedEx ships both though will only ship 2nd day so more expensive.

I think you got that backwards. USPS wont ship handguns, only long guns. UPS ships both handguns and long guns.

And USPS told me not to show the postal worker a copy of the FFL it's going to as individual clerks don't know the rules, so they often tell customers they don't ship guns at all! I went through this on two occasions, and even took a copy of their regulations to show them they do, but still got denied. Finally the contact at the main post office told me not to tell them what was in the box, and added if they asked to tell them they are not allowed to ask what 's inside beyond their normal 4 questions they always ask.
After that I never have any problems shipping rifles USPS, and prefer using them over other vendors.

 

[mad ox]

I think you got that backwards. USPS wont ship handguns, only long guns. UPS ships both handguns and long guns.

And USPS told me not to show the postal worker a copy of the FFL it's going to as individual clerks don't know the rules, so they often tell customers they don't ship guns at all! I went through this on two occasions, and even took a copy of their regulations to show them they do, but still got denied. Finally the contact at the main post office told me not to tell them what was in the box, and added if they asked to tell them they are not allowed to ask what 's inside beyond their normal 4 questions they always ask.
After that I never have any problems shipping rifles USPS, and prefer using them over other vendors.

Question for Mad Ox, and any others with sure knowledge on this to see if I understand WA rules correctly. I am only using shotgun/rifle because I already know the answer on handguns.

1. True of False: If WA resident is selling a shotgun/rifle in WA to another WA resident both must appear at the FFL and transfer the gun through the FFL--no direct person-to-person sales allowed.

2. True of False: If WA resident is selling a shotgun/rifle to a buyer in another state it can be shipped directly from WA resident to an FFL in the other state who then logs it in his books, does the background check on the purchaser, and transfers ownership to the purchaser in his state.

3. True of False: If a Moscow, ID resident wants to purchase shotgun/rifle just over the state line in Pullman, WA and travels to Pullman to get it both buyer and seller must meet at an FFL, undergo background checks, then transfer ownership through FFL. ID resident can then take shotgun/rifle back home to ID.

4. True of False: Pullman, WA resident wants to sell a shotgun to a Moscow, ID resident. Gun can be hand carried by the WA owner from WA to ID and then be sold directly, person-to-person, no FFL needed, to the ID resident just as if an ID resident was selling to another ID resident.

Please enlighten me.

1 = TRUE
2 = TRUE
3 = TRUE with conditions (A FFL can transfer or sell to a long gun to a non resident of the FFL's state as long as the non resident lives in a contiguous state AND the sale is not prohibited in the buyer's state.)
4 = FALSE (interstate private sales are not allowed.)

Question 3 follow up Initiative 1639 restrictions; Prior to 1639, a WA resident could have gone to a gun store in ID, or OR and purchased any long gun. That sale would have to comply with both seller's and buyer's state laws and processes. Post 1639 a WA resident can only by a bolt, or single shot rifle, or a shotgun from a store in ID, or OR. While there seems to be allowance in the language of 1639 for an ID store to sell a semi auto to a WA buyer, the ID store would still have to comply with WA 1639. I'm betting most ID stores will say "nope, pick a WA FFL and we will ship it". It would also entail a 2nd trip to ID after 10 business days to pick it up.

 

[ma96782]

Well, isn't this what background checks are supposed to be about? If I ship the firearm to an FFL dealer, it's on them to do the BG check. And, if a straw purchase takes place, that's against the law. But it isn't one that I, as a seller in another state have broken or have any control over. That's somebody else's look-out.

Yes.....before the transfer (and taking of possession).....the receiving FFL MUST follow all applicable laws before transferring (handing over) the firearm to his client. And, a BGC of the client is just a part of that process.

Rrrrrright.....but "LOOPHOLE". LOL. "UNICORN".

BUT....my paragraph that you copied was about the seller (person doing the shipping or the transferor). Oooops....I forgot about the possible case.....where the lawyer is a convicted FELON or has been convicted of DV.

Aloha, Mark

 

[ma96782]

***Declare all firearm shipments***AND***Unless prohibited by your state or local laws***

A Non-FFL Dealer, CAN ship a long gun (rifle or shotgun), via the US Mail or common/contract carrier (Fed Ex, UPS, etc.) to an FFL, back to the factory, or gunsmith, or out of state (to yourself), or to another non-prohibited person within your state.*

A Non-FFL Dealer, CANNOT ship a handgun via the US Mail. However, a Non-FFL Dealer, MAY USE a common/contract carrier for handgun shipments…….to an FFL, back to the factory, or gunsmith, or out of state (to yourself), or to another non-prohibited person within your state.*

That being said.....as a Non-FFL, I've found it cheaper, to take my handgun(s) to my FFL Dealer (even w/ his fee) and have the handgun(s) shipped via the USPS, registered mail and insured. YMWV.

For an FFL Dealer, a firearm (handgun or long gun) can be shipped by either the US Mail or common/contract carrier.

*Note: The current BGC Laws (example : WA and OR) have thrown a wrench into this. As I said prior......"Unless prohibited by your state or local laws."

BTW, the US Postal Service does NOT recognize a C&R Lic. (Collector Lic.), as being the same thing as an FFL (Dealer Lic.).

Aloha, Mark

 

[BlindedByScience]

I remember that I was able to UPS my S&W back to Cylinder and Slide for their work, and C&S was able to ship it directly back to me. The difference, of course, is that they are a licensed manufacturer and the ownership of the firearm wasn't being changed.

 

[mad ox]

That does not make it OK. By using the license, she is representing herself as a dealer or his representative. One can not delegate the responsibility - other than to employees under their supervision - who would be listed as employees and a user of the license. That entails a background check to add them to the license. Also the fact that the shipper includes the FFL license means that the item has been entered into their books - from a legitimate source.

Yep, risky at best. The ATF inspector that provided the my initial training warned me that most FFLs get in trouble from friends and family. Who ever actually takes the firearm to a shipping company isn't important but the FFL is still responsible. For example, I may trust my wife to take something to UPS to ship and that would be legal. Other than that, my list of people to trust would get really short and I am still on the hook if she screws it up.

One note though, being "added" to a FFL has a specific meaning to the ATF. A person that is officially added to a license has full control of that license including changing location, operation and cancelling the license. Gun stores do not add employees to a license in that sense. They are authorized to perform duties UNDER the license. Usually by some written authorization that is originated by the store and spells out what they can and cannot do. Background checks for employees will depend on the state laws and the stores policy though I'm betting you would be hard pressed to find one that didn't do checks.

In the end, there is nothing that would actually prevent someone from packing up a handgun, going to UPS, not tell them it is a firearm and shipping it to a buddy in New York City. Yes it's illegal. Contrary to what gun control people say, laws do not "PREVENT" criminal activity. You actually have to break them 1st.

 

[mad ox]

mad ox,

You also forgot the part about the collection of the "special fee" as specified under I-1639.

But....it's not like I care. IF...say that.....I WA resident) made a purchase in an adjoining state and the FFL didn't collect the WA fee.

Aloha, Mark

Ah yes, the fee, currently 18.00. Betting it will go up soon. WA State Patrol has been tasked by the WA legislator with creating a single point for these background checks. Once up and running handgun and semi auto's will be sent to the State Patrol for processing vs the buyers local jurisdiction LEA. I bet the states eastern sheriffs refusal to comply with 1639 has something to do with this.

The fee and a copy of the state form are supposed to be sent to the Department of Licensing for a PERMANENT record of the transaction. If an out of state dealer doesn't do this, the language of 1639 implies that the buyer is the one who will be charged with the crime. How will they know if this wasn't done and you have owned the rifle before initiative 1639? They won't until something bad happens and they run a trace for the rifle and find it was sold to you after 1639 by a store in Post Falls ID. You may have purchased the rifle in good faith and paid the fee thinking the store would properly process the paperwork. But if they don't, you are on the hook unless you have someway to show you did. There are federal regulations that require a dealer to comply with laws of the buyers state but that is a federal thing and wouldn't help you with the WA laws. It might help you as a defense but you can bet Ole Fergy will go after you anyway he can because you are a scary person and bought a scary Glenfield model 60 assault weapon. If you purchased the rifle from a WA dealer, the trace would comeback to that dealer and now the dealer is on the hook if the paperwork isn't submitted.

 

[ma96782]

1. True of False: If WA resident is selling a shotgun/rifle in WA to another WA resident both must appear at the FFL and transfer the gun through the FFL--no direct person-to-person sales allowed.

Getting TECHNICAL here......

I note that, your question #1, was about a WA resident selling a shotgun/rifle to another WA resident in a what is normally called a PVT SALE.

Note that the FTF PVT SALE (without the involvement of an FFL) is no longer OK in WA.

Start by making assumptions....
I assume we are talking about both parties being non-prohibited persons.
I assume that the firearms are not under some "special" Federal category of firearm (like NFA).
I assume that the person taking possession, if it's an assault rifle, is over 21 years of age (I-1639)

Well.......to assume too much may just be making an.......

Rrrright.....
ASSUME = ______ out of U and ME.

Thus I didn't want to hazard an answer. Sorry.

Aloha, Mark

PS.... if it were the simple question of the PVT SALE with both buyer and seller as WA residents? The simple answer would be, YES, the transfer must involve the services of an FFL.

LOL....but then, it doesn't mean that the seller would ever have to actually meet the buyer in person. Or that the seller would actually have to actually meet the FFL either. What?

Yeah....the seller places a classified ad. The buyer agrees on a price with the seller. Money is sent to the buyer. The seller transports (say via mail) a shotgun/rifle to the buyer's FFL. And, the buyer picks up his/her purchase at the FFLs place of business. Rrrright.....the seller never had to actually "appear" in front of the FFL (or in front of the seller for that matter).