Question about private sale BGCs

[jbett98]

How Long do FFLs Need to Keep Their Records?
by Ryan Cleckner | Jul 29, 2017 | ATF | 0 comments


FFL Record Retention Time.

Dealer's Acquisition and Disposition Record 20 Years*
Firearms Transaction Record, Form 4473 – Transfers 20 Years*
Firearms Transaction Record, Form 4473 – Background Check without Transfer 5 Years
Multiple Handgun Sales Report, Form 3310.4 5 Years
FFL Theft/Loss Report 5 Years


* Note: For all of the records above that need to be kept for 20 years, they can all be legally discarded/destroyed after 20 years has passed. However, the ATF prefers that you maintain these records for the life of your FFL. If you'd like to get rid of them after 20 years, you can turn them in to the ATF at the same location where you must send your records after you decide to stop being an FFL, the ATF's Out of Business Records Center.

 

[jbett98]

I wish the OSP would have found those stored records, because every 5 years I would get delayed over and over until I expunged my 1980 class B citation in Utah.

 

[Greenbug]

The gun stores make you pay for the gun first, then do the background check.

What gun store are you shopping at? I have never paid for a gun before the transaction was approved at any gun shop I have been in. Also, just because the gun shop has you pay first it does not mean you are physically taking possession of the gun. What I was trying to say was that possession is the majority of the law, not that you are the registered owner of the gun because you went through a background check to get it.

 

[308]

Legal speak probably means the data on the 4473, but does not mean that data could be mined and stored in a different format under a different name.

Google collects all the data run thru their servers and mines it, and associated it with an IP and the related name. That information is stored elsewhere in a different form. The harddrives collecting that data are periodically wiped, reformatted, checked for integrity, and repackaged for reuse in their data centers.

Nothing is "deleted"...just moved to another form.

 

[notazombie]

They might actually delete the records from a DB, but as a software engineer with many years of experience in business apps, I can guarantee that the data is most assuredly backed up somewhere, probably multiple places. There are also most likely multiple apps that take a copy of the data and run reports and analytics on that data, and that data and the reports/etc. are also backed up.

When data like this gets into a large network like the state has, there are so many copies of the data floating around that even if the IT dept. made a diligent and concerted effort to 'delete' every copy, they would most likely fail. If nothing else, someone who takes a raw copy of the data can generally copy it off the network onto a flash drive and then it is there forever.

Also, data is rarely actually deleted, whether in a DB or on storage medium - it is just marked for deletion and at best the space that it once occupied is reused for new data to overwrite it. Recovering that data before it is overwritten is not hard - it is just a matter of getting to it in time. Newer storage medium like solid state drives even more so (it is very hard to actually securely delete data on a flash drive or SSD because of the way the media works).

The safest assumption is that there are multiple copies of that data in the hands of people who would like to use it for purposes that violate our rights.

But Hillary made it look so easy.

 

[308]

But Hillary made it look so easy.

Chimps with ball-peen hammers

 

[The Heretic]

But Hillary made it look so easy.

And still they found data.

If you are running a private server outside of the usual network, not part of IT, and it is running its own email software, then you can probably succeed in deleting that data from that server, but I guarantee that any email that goes out, the NSA has a copy of it, not to mention the destination email servers (the trick there would be knowing the destination, but the NSA knows that too). If the gov. wanted to spend the money and time, they could recover every email anybody sends out - once it goes out, they have it.

Pretty much anything that traverses the internet, the NSA has a copy of somewhere. Whether they keep it for long is another question, but I would bet for people like the Clinton's they have a copy cached somewhere.

 

[Koda]

What gun store are you shopping at? I have never paid for a gun before the transaction was approved at any gun shop I have been in. Also, just because the gun shop has you pay first it does not mean you are physically taking possession of the gun. What I was trying to say was that possession is the majority of the law, not that you are the registered owner of the gun because you went through a background check to get it.

I dont know if all gun shops do it but the last one I bought from did, Kieths...

I asked why and the reason was if for some reason I didnt have the funds, they would have to transfer the gun back to their name. Its much easier for them to just refund your card the money if you fail the UBC.

This confirms something Ive said since Oregon passed the UBC law, the transfer is legal ownership. Think about that befor you, lawfully, let your friend hold onto your gun for a while if needed.

 

[Kidder74]

What gun store are you shopping at? I have never paid for a gun before the transaction was approved at any gun shop I have been in. Also, just because the gun shop has you pay first it does not mean you are physically taking possession of the gun. What I was trying to say was that possession is the majority of the law, not that you are the registered owner of the gun because you went through a background check to get it.

When I bought my latest handgun from a shop, first I filled out the paperwork, did the fingerprint, they processed the BGC while I browsed around a bit more and drooled on other firearms that I couldn't afford (was able to cut in line for the BGC, too, due to my CHL. Went from 23rd to 2nd, yay! Makes it worth it right there). Once they let me know the BGC passed a few minutes later, they asked for payment for the gun plus the $10 fee for the BGC/paperwork stuff. Signed the receipt after they swiped my card and I was out the door.

And a couple other guys there in the store that were also buying, who started the process before me, were a little confused as to how I got in and out a lot quicker than them even though I started my transaction after they did.

 

[Argonaut]

Hypothetical situation here....

Let's say Bob goes to an Oregon gun shop and decides to buy a used Glock. The Oregon gun shop runs a background check on Bob with the serial number of the used Glock with it through the Oregon State Police, and Bob gets approved for the purchase. So by most folks reasoning that used Glock is now "registered" to Bob in Oregon right?

While waiting for the background check to pass on his used Glock, Bob spots a cherry Colt 1911 that he would much rather have. Bob goes to the sales guy and says, "sorry man, I really want this Colt instead of the Glock". Sales guy says, ok, but we have to do the paperwork and background check again for the Colt. Bob then goes through the background check process again and gets cleared and goes home with his bubblegumin' Colt.

So now, according to most peoples' thinking, the state of Oregon thinks Bob bought a used Glock AND a Colt when in fact he only took possession of the Colt, not the used Glock.

Not really any way for the state of Oregon to prove that Bob owns a Glock and a Colt unless Bob, or the gun shop volunteers that information to the state. All Oregon can say is that Bob was approved to purchase a used Glock and a
Colt.

I guess the main thing behind my rambling here is that Bob has good taste in guns and that Colts are better than Glocks and that Oregon does not know what you have for sure.

You missed the point that there is no registration in Oregon. It is illegal by federal law. With that said, California ignores the federal law when it comes to handguns and actually registers them to an individual. Long guns are not registered unless they fit the definition of an assault weapon. If you are stoped in California and the trooper finds a handgun, he can check to see if it is registered to you at the roadside. If it isn't, he can confiscate it pending establishment of how and why you have it. Long guns can be checked against the stolen data base but there is no register.

 

[Koda]

You missed the point that there is no registration in Oregon. It is illegal by federal law

Oregon keeps a record of every sale up to 5 years, per Oregon law.
There is no federal law that says a state cant keep a registry.

 

[Argonaut]

Oregon keeps a record of every sale up to 5 years, per Oregon law.
There is no federal law that says a state cant keep a registry.

They can't keep the serial numbers by federal law. Only a record that there was a sale to an individual.

 

[The Heretic]

They can't keep the serial numbers by federal law. Only a record that there was a sale to an individual.

Cite?

NICS can't be used as a registry, but states can implement their own.

Firearm Owners Protection Act - Wikipedia

 

[Koda]

They can't keep the serial numbers by federal law. Only a record that there was a sale to an individual.

Then why do they ask for the number to check someones background?

 

[Argonaut]

Cite?

It has been cited many times in developing California law. The exception there is they just ignore it when it comes to handguns.

 

[Argonaut]

Then why do they ask for the number to check someones background?

To check the stolen firearm listings. The 2 things that get checked are if you can leagally own the gun and if it is stolen.

 

[Koda]

It has been cited many times in developing California law. The exception there is they just ignore it when it comes to handguns.

But were talking about Oregon law...

 

[Koda]

To check the stolen firearm listings.

A stolen gun being sold from an FFL?

 

[Argonaut]

A stolen gun being sold from an FFL?

They find them all the time, either being sold or transferred. Guns that nobody knew that were stolen that are discovered during the FFL approval process. They are commonly found in pawn shops as well. In California any gun in a pawn shop has to be run against the stolen data base. I don't know about other states.....probably there too.

 

[The Heretic]

They find them all the time. Guns that nobody knew that were stolen that are discovered during the FFL approval process.

My impression though is that this is not a priority with Orygun, that they may run a check on their DB which is incomplete and not coordinated very well with other agencies.

I think this is more of an excuse than anything else, in order to get the make/model and serial # for eventual use later. Of course, they will deny that.