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Question about deadly force

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Asp, Aug 1, 2011.

  1. Asp

    Asp Oregon, the promise land. Active Member

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    Say you're at a max stop waiting for a train, when all of a sudden you see a large man beating an elderly woman.

    For the question's sake: You are armed.
    What can one legally do to stop this situation (immediately)?

    84-year-old woman assaulted at MAX stop | kgw.com Portland

    What's the solution, other than counting the number of times she is hit, like most of the witnesses?
     
  2. wayoutwest

    wayoutwest Polk County, Oregon Active Member

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    161.205 Use of physical force generally. The use of physical force upon another person that would otherwise constitute an offense is justifiable and not criminal under any of the following circumstances:

    (1) A parent, guardian or other person entrusted with the care and supervision of a minor or an incompetent person may use reasonable physical force upon such minor or incompetent person when and to the extent the person reasonably believes it necessary to maintain discipline or to promote the welfare of the minor or incompetent person. A teacher may use reasonable physical force upon a student when and to the extent the teacher reasonably believes it necessary to maintain order in the school or classroom or at a school activity or event, whether or not it is held on school property.

    (2) An authorized official of a jail, prison or correctional facility may use physical force when and to the extent that the official reasonably believes it necessary to maintain order and discipline or as is authorized by law.

    (3) A person responsible for the maintenance of order in a common carrier of passengers, or a person acting under the direction of the person, may use physical force when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes it necessary to maintain order, but the person may use deadly physical force only when the person reasonably believes it necessary to prevent death or serious physical injury.

    (4) A person acting under a reasonable belief that another person is about to commit suicide or to inflict serious physical self-injury may use physical force upon that person to the extent that the person reasonably believes it necessary to thwart the result.

    (5) A person may use physical force upon another person in self-defense or in defending a third person, in defending property, in making an arrest or in preventing an escape, as hereafter prescribed in chapter 743, Oregon Laws 1971. [1971 c.743 §21; 1981 c.246 §1]


    161.209 Use of physical force in defense of a person. Except as provided in ORS 161.215 and 161.219, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person for self-defense or to defend a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force, and the person may use a degree of force which the person reasonably believes to be necessary for the purpose. [1971 c.743 §22]



    161.210 [Repealed by 1971 c.743 §432]



    161.215 Limitations on use of physical force in defense of a person. Notwithstanding ORS 161.209, a person is not justified in using physical force upon another person if:

    (1) With intent to cause physical injury or death to another person, the person provokes the use of unlawful physical force by that person; or

    (2) The person is the initial aggressor, except that the use of physical force upon another person under such circumstances is justifiable if the person withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person the intent to do so, but the latter nevertheless continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful physical force; or

    (3) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by agreement not specifically authorized by law. [1971 c.743 §24]



    161.219 Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person. Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209, a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:

    (1) Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or

    (2) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or

    (3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person. [1971 c.743 §23]
     
  3. Redcap

    Redcap Lewis County, WA Well-Known Member

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    Drop the guy like a bad dog.
     
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  4. salmonriverjohn

    salmonriverjohn N.W Oregon coast, Gods country Well-Known Member

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    Police arrested 19-year-old Cordarious Jeffreys. He is being charged with attempted assault in the second degree, assault in the fourth degree, and interfering with public transportation.

    That's all he is being charged with? BS! She was hit over 20 times in the head! He was attempting to kill her for Gods sake. What I would have given to have been there, I cant believe nobody didn't beat this ^&#$!@! to a pulp, I agree with Redcap, he should be put out of "our" misery.
     
  5. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    In the case of a) the age of the victim and b) the age and size of the aggressor I'd say that deployment of a firearm would be justified. I say this because of the extreme age of the victim and the imminent threat of death.

    Draw, command the guy to back away or you'll shoot. At that point you have to decide if you're going to attempt to detain him or let him run off(to possibly come back with his own gun).
     
  6. Asp

    Asp Oregon, the promise land. Active Member

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    His info is here

    Charge: INTERF W/PUB TRANS (A Misdemeanor), Status: Unsentenced
    Charge: ASSAULT III (C Felony), Status: Unsentenced
    Charge: ASSAULT IV (A Misdemeanor), Status: Disposed
    Charge: ATT ASSAULT II (C Felony), Status: Unsentenced

    The perp:
    Height: 5 ft 11 in
    Weight: 200 lbs
     
  7. gruntjim

    gruntjim Beaverton Member

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    It comes down to the disparity of force, and the immediacy of the threat to an innocent.

    The perp doesn't have to be armed with an external weapon, as his age, youth and violence would lead a reasonable and prudent person to conclude that the elderly lady was in immediate danger of grave bodily harm or death.

    I'm no lawyer, but the charge should probably have been attempted murder.
     
  8. ta2er

    ta2er Oregon Member

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    Not sure why you would even bother carrying if not to prevent situations like this. It's part of our duty as gun owners, IMHO. Future court fees would never prevent me from drawing on that tool.
     
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  9. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    i SERIOUSLY doubt my first move would be to draw and fire. 3" and 30lbs or not, if he's some stupid bubbleguming kid, i've got the skills necessary to take care of him without putting holes through him. undefended backsides are a shmorgishborg of soft spots for strikes... neck, kidneys, knees, ankles. i'm not a cop- i don't shoot when i can tackle.

    HOWEVER- if you're puny, old, fat, or otherwise FTU... then yes, shooting is probably a justifiable use of force.
     
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  10. Asp

    Asp Oregon, the promise land. Active Member

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    Edited ;)
     
  11. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    "totality of the circumstances" is a much loved phrase used in the criminal justice world... that's what's used to establish chargeability and prosecutibility. what might be OK for a guy with a busted up leg and doctor's note may not at all be OK for an infantry vet in good physical condition. generally most states' use of force laws have wording like "minimum force necessary," which is deliberately open ended to allow for the totality of the circumstances to be taken in and judged on their own worth.
     
  12. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Civil liability should be enough to make you think twice. Not saying you're wrong though.

    I'm thinking that if some young buck is willing to go punching on a middle aged woman and then turn his rage onto a elderly woman just because she was there then he quite possibly could be high on something like crack or meth. Sure, I could start bashing on him but if he's high he might not feel the pain and also have that "super human" strength that some get while being high. No thank you. I might draw my gun and pray I wouldn't have to use it.
     
  13. Browning55

    Browning55 Seattle-Everett Area Active Member

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    There could be a natural tendency to take him on without drawing a weapon -- but getting into a physical scuffle while armed is not at all a good thing. It would seem the most prudent, justified, and cleanest attack-ending method would be the "draw and command" option.
     
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  14. salmonriverjohn

    salmonriverjohn N.W Oregon coast, Gods country Well-Known Member

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    And that's my point in entirely. This PC O $hit will back on the street faster than his court appointed lawyer can cash his taxpayer supplied service check. It boils my blood to see the way this type of human excrement is basically slapped on the wrist and has a finger shook in his face. I can take being judged by a jury, but I for damn sure wont take standing by and wittnessing something as despicable as this *** clown's actions. Im sorry for the profanity, but this ones way over the top in my book. He needs to be assuming room temperature right now.
     
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  15. HappyRoman

    HappyRoman Sherwood Forest Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    dirt returned to dirt... temperature
     
  16. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    This plays into the fact that you don't know the facts

    Like is she got a real hard head and can take a beating?(like this woman did) Or did she just get out of the hospital for something?
    Will the next punch kill her?

    As far as I would think,he was killing her.I would see my mom's face there and ,like other have said,room temperature.

    Any one of us could b killed by blows to the head.Or your head bouncing off a corner or some hard object.
    Sometimes head injuries don't show up right away.She may have problems from this.

    I'll take my chances in a situation like this.The woman wins.
     
  17. WhyteCheddar

    WhyteCheddar East of Moscow by the Willamette Well-Known Member

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    Its great to post the ORS. The more people here read it (and understand it) the better off we all are.
    But, I thinks its also important that we remind ourselves that even if we use deadly force to the letter of the law (in our eyes) we are still likely going to sit in front of a jury. And that jury is not predictable.
    A given set of jurors may think using physical force may of been reasonable given their view of the 'facts'. On the other hand, you may luck out and have a number of 2A supporters on the jury. If that happens then the prosecution screwed up during the selection process.
     
  18. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    Do you guys have a blanket (sometimes called umbrella) insurance policy? You can buy it outright from your agent, or some companies will make it a rider on your homeowners insurance. Make sure it covers legal fees for something like this. There's nothing like having your ins. co. step up with lawyers in a situation like this. I have $1 million. It provides a total of $1 million for any civil damages awarded including defense attorneys. It also covers a lot of other things I might do.

    Depending on your assets, you might think that you don't need that much, and can get by cheaper. Even $100k should cover legal expenses. I'd have to read my policy or ask my agent, but I don't think it covers criminal charges. I'm going to find out today for sure, but I don't think you can get ins. for criminal charges.
     
  19. hermannr

    hermannr Okanogan Highlands Well-Known Member

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    45 years ago, right after I got back from Vietnam, I might have physically detained the guy, but not now. It would have been "stop beating that old woman NOW, or I will drop you." That sould probably be sufficient to stop the beating, which is the object of the exercize.

    If he did not stop, and/or turned his attention to (gray haired old man) me, I would have dropped him...1 shot, not 10 should be totally sufficent. I would doubt that would be the end of it though as people that beat up old defenseless women are cowards, 10 to 1 he would have run at the first command to stop. Let him run, the cops can deal with him later. If he changes his focus to you...drop him.
     
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  20. WhyteCheddar

    WhyteCheddar East of Moscow by the Willamette Well-Known Member

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    Not to jack the thread but its pretty common for folks who are mental, or on drug or a combination of those to not be bothered by several 'man stopper' rounds. Not saying your perspective is wrong or anything, just making a small point.