Question about deadly force

Messages
595
Reactions
291
Say you're at a max stop waiting for a train, when all of a sudden you see a large man beating an elderly woman.

For the question's sake: You are armed.
What can one legally do to stop this situation (immediately)?

<broken link removed>

KGW said:
GRESHAM, Ore -- An 84-year-old Gresham woman is recovering from an assault at the hands of a 19-year-old.
"Very tired, very worn out, head hurts," said Muriel, who did not wish to reveal her last name.

Muriel was waiting for a bus at the Cleveland Transit Center in Gresham Wednesday afternoon when she noticed a young man punching a middle-aged woman.

"I thought he was terribly big," said Muriel. "Maybe it was because I was sitting down and he was just a big person." Before she knew it the man had turned his attention to her. He was right in front of her.

"He started beating on me," said Muriel. "On my head, on my head, as hard as he could go."

Muriel suffered a broken nose, bruises around her eyes, and a cut on her head. Witnesses estimate she was hit nearly 20 times.
"I thought I was going to die," said Muriel.

Police arrested 19-year-old Cordarious Jeffreys. He is being charged with attempted assault in the second degree, assault in the fourth degree, and interfering with public transportation.

"It's upsetting because why pick on someone who can't defend themselves because of their age?" said Officer Malaka Kerbs of the Gresham Police Department.

Muriel asks herself the same question, but she refuses to let it ruin her spirit.
"I'm alive and I'm going on the assumption that I'm still here and have a good day."
Jeffreys was arraigned Thursday afternoon and will be back in court Tuesday.
What's the solution, other than counting the number of times she is hit, like most of the witnesses?
 
Messages
724
Reactions
132
161.205 Use of physical force generally. The use of physical force upon another person that would otherwise constitute an offense is justifiable and not criminal under any of the following circumstances:

(1) A parent, guardian or other person entrusted with the care and supervision of a minor or an incompetent person may use reasonable physical force upon such minor or incompetent person when and to the extent the person reasonably believes it necessary to maintain discipline or to promote the welfare of the minor or incompetent person. A teacher may use reasonable physical force upon a student when and to the extent the teacher reasonably believes it necessary to maintain order in the school or classroom or at a school activity or event, whether or not it is held on school property.

(2) An authorized official of a jail, prison or correctional facility may use physical force when and to the extent that the official reasonably believes it necessary to maintain order and discipline or as is authorized by law.

(3) A person responsible for the maintenance of order in a common carrier of passengers, or a person acting under the direction of the person, may use physical force when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes it necessary to maintain order, but the person may use deadly physical force only when the person reasonably believes it necessary to prevent death or serious physical injury.

(4) A person acting under a reasonable belief that another person is about to commit suicide or to inflict serious physical self-injury may use physical force upon that person to the extent that the person reasonably believes it necessary to thwart the result.

(5) A person may use physical force upon another person in self-defense or in defending a third person, in defending property, in making an arrest or in preventing an escape, as hereafter prescribed in chapter 743, Oregon Laws 1971. [1971 c.743 §21; 1981 c.246 §1]


161.209 Use of physical force in defense of a person. Except as provided in ORS 161.215 and 161.219, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person for self-defense or to defend a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force, and the person may use a degree of force which the person reasonably believes to be necessary for the purpose. [1971 c.743 §22]



161.210 [Repealed by 1971 c.743 §432]



161.215 Limitations on use of physical force in defense of a person. Notwithstanding ORS 161.209, a person is not justified in using physical force upon another person if:

(1) With intent to cause physical injury or death to another person, the person provokes the use of unlawful physical force by that person; or

(2) The person is the initial aggressor, except that the use of physical force upon another person under such circumstances is justifiable if the person withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person the intent to do so, but the latter nevertheless continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful physical force; or

(3) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by agreement not specifically authorized by law. [1971 c.743 §24]



161.219 Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person. Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209, a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:

(1) Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or

(2) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or

(3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person. [1971 c.743 §23]
 
Messages
3,743
Reactions
6,841
Police arrested 19-year-old Cordarious Jeffreys. He is being charged with attempted assault in the second degree, assault in the fourth degree, and interfering with public transportation.

That's all he is being charged with? BS! She was hit over 20 times in the head! He was attempting to kill her for Gods sake. What I would have given to have been there, I cant believe nobody didn't beat this ^&#$!@! to a pulp, I agree with Redcap, he should be put out of "our" misery.
 

darkminstrel

Messages
1,711
Reactions
758
In the case of a) the age of the victim and b) the age and size of the aggressor I'd say that deployment of a firearm would be justified. I say this because of the extreme age of the victim and the imminent threat of death.

Draw, command the guy to back away or you'll shoot. At that point you have to decide if you're going to attempt to detain him or let him run off(to possibly come back with his own gun).
 
OP
Asp
Messages
595
Reactions
291
Police arrested 19-year-old Cordarious Jeffreys. He is being charged with attempted assault in the second degree, assault in the fourth degree, and interfering with public transportation.
His info is here

Charge: INTERF W/PUB TRANS (A Misdemeanor), Status: Unsentenced
Charge: ASSAULT III (C Felony), Status: Unsentenced
Charge: ASSAULT IV (A Misdemeanor), Status: Disposed
Charge: ATT ASSAULT II (C Felony), Status: Unsentenced

The perp:
Height: 5 ft 11 in
Weight: 200 lbs
 
Messages
216
Reactions
111
It comes down to the disparity of force, and the immediacy of the threat to an innocent.

The perp doesn't have to be armed with an external weapon, as his age, youth and violence would lead a reasonable and prudent person to conclude that the elderly lady was in immediate danger of grave bodily harm or death.

I'm no lawyer, but the charge should probably have been attempted murder.
 
Messages
4,018
Reactions
2,640
i SERIOUSLY doubt my first move would be to draw and fire. 3" and 30lbs or not, if he's some stupid bubbleguming kid, i've got the skills necessary to take care of him without putting holes through him. undefended backsides are a shmorgishborg of soft spots for strikes... neck, kidneys, knees, ankles. i'm not a cop- i don't shoot when i can tackle.

HOWEVER- if you're puny, old, fat, or otherwise FTU... then yes, shooting is probably a justifiable use of force.
 
Messages
4,018
Reactions
2,640
"totality of the circumstances" is a much loved phrase used in the criminal justice world... that's what's used to establish chargeability and prosecutibility. what might be OK for a guy with a busted up leg and doctor's note may not at all be OK for an infantry vet in good physical condition. generally most states' use of force laws have wording like "minimum force necessary," which is deliberately open ended to allow for the totality of the circumstances to be taken in and judged on their own worth.
 
Messages
1,714
Reactions
663
Not sure why you would even bother carrying if not to prevent situations like this. It's part of our duty as gun owners, IMHO. Future court fees would never prevent me from drawing on that tool.
Civil liability should be enough to make you think twice. Not saying you're wrong though.

i SERIOUSLY doubt my first move would be to draw and fire. 3" and 30lbs or not, if he's some stupid bubbleguming kid, i've got the skills necessary to take care of him without putting holes through him. undefended backsides are a shmorgishborg of soft spots for strikes... neck, kidneys, knees, ankles. i'm not a cop- i don't shoot when i can tackle.

HOWEVER- if you're puny, old, fat, or otherwise FTU... then yes, shooting is probably a justifiable use of force.
I'm thinking that if some young buck is willing to go punching on a middle aged woman and then turn his rage onto a elderly woman just because she was there then he quite possibly could be high on something like crack or meth. Sure, I could start bashing on him but if he's high he might not feel the pain and also have that "super human" strength that some get while being high. No thank you. I might draw my gun and pray I wouldn't have to use it.
 
Messages
3,743
Reactions
6,841
His info is here

Charge: INTERF W/PUB TRANS (A Misdemeanor), Status: Unsentenced
Charge: ASSAULT III (C Felony), Status: Unsentenced
Charge: ASSAULT IV (A Misdemeanor), Status: Disposed
Charge: ATT ASSAULT II (C Felony), Status: Unsentenced

The perp:
Height: 5 ft 11 in
Weight: 200 lbs
And that's my point in entirely. This PC O $hit will back on the street faster than his court appointed lawyer can cash his taxpayer supplied service check. It boils my blood to see the way this type of human excrement is basically slapped on the wrist and has a finger shook in his face. I can take being judged by a jury, but I for damn sure wont take standing by and wittnessing something as despicable as this *** clown's actions. Im sorry for the profanity, but this ones way over the top in my book. He needs to be assuming room temperature right now.
 
Messages
11,841
Reactions
10,955
This plays into the fact that you don't know the facts

Like is she got a real hard head and can take a beating?(like this woman did) Or did she just get out of the hospital for something?
Will the next punch kill her?

As far as I would think,he was killing her.I would see my mom's face there and ,like other have said,room temperature.

Any one of us could b killed by blows to the head.Or your head bouncing off a corner or some hard object.
Sometimes head injuries don't show up right away.She may have problems from this.

I'll take my chances in a situation like this.The woman wins.
 
Messages
1,397
Reactions
420
Its great to post the ORS. The more people here read it (and understand it) the better off we all are.
But, I thinks its also important that we remind ourselves that even if we use deadly force to the letter of the law (in our eyes) we are still likely going to sit in front of a jury. And that jury is not predictable.
A given set of jurors may think using physical force may of been reasonable given their view of the 'facts'. On the other hand, you may luck out and have a number of 2A supporters on the jury. If that happens then the prosecution screwed up during the selection process.
 
Messages
5,092
Reactions
882
Do you guys have a blanket (sometimes called umbrella) insurance policy? You can buy it outright from your agent, or some companies will make it a rider on your homeowners insurance. Make sure it covers legal fees for something like this. There's nothing like having your ins. co. step up with lawyers in a situation like this. I have $1 million. It provides a total of $1 million for any civil damages awarded including defense attorneys. It also covers a lot of other things I might do.

Depending on your assets, you might think that you don't need that much, and can get by cheaper. Even $100k should cover legal expenses. I'd have to read my policy or ask my agent, but I don't think it covers criminal charges. I'm going to find out today for sure, but I don't think you can get ins. for criminal charges.
 
Messages
1,812
Reactions
868
45 years ago, right after I got back from Vietnam, I might have physically detained the guy, but not now. It would have been "stop beating that old woman NOW, or I will drop you." That sould probably be sufficient to stop the beating, which is the object of the exercize.

If he did not stop, and/or turned his attention to (gray haired old man) me, I would have dropped him...1 shot, not 10 should be totally sufficent. I would doubt that would be the end of it though as people that beat up old defenseless women are cowards, 10 to 1 he would have run at the first command to stop. Let him run, the cops can deal with him later. If he changes his focus to you...drop him.
 
Messages
1,397
Reactions
420
45 years ago, right after I got back from Vietnam, I might have physically detained the guy, but not now. It would have been "stop beating that old woman NOW, or I will drop you." That sould probably be sufficient to stop the beating, which is the object of the exercize.

If he did not stop, and/or turned his attention to (gray haired old man) me, I would have dropped him...1 shot, not 10 should be totally sufficent. I would doubt that would be the end of it though as people that beat up old defenseless women are cowards, 10 to 1 he would have run at the first command to stop. Let him run, the cops can deal with him later. If he changes his focus to you...drop him.
Not to jack the thread but its pretty common for folks who are mental, or on drug or a combination of those to not be bothered by several 'man stopper' rounds. Not saying your perspective is wrong or anything, just making a small point.
 

UPCOMING EVENTS

Cerberus Training Group - Skill Builder - Pistol/Rifle Combo
Cerberus Training Group
47 Cattle Dr, Goldendale, WA 98620, USA
Albany Rifle & Pistol Club (ARPC) Gun Show
Linn County Expo Center
3700 Knox Butte Rd E, Albany, OR 97322, USA
Arms Collectors of SW Washington Gun Show
Battleground Community Center
912 E Main St, Battle Ground, WA 98604, USA
DRRC .22 Rimfire Challenge Oct 10
Douglas Ridge Rifle Club
27787 OR-224, Eagle Creek, OR 97022, USA
Oregon State Steel Challenge Championship
Central Oregon Shooting Sports Association
Millican, OR 97701, USA

LATEST RESOURCE REVIEWS

  • J&B Firearm Sales
    5.00 star(s)
    Good local shop
    Picked up a rifle yesterday from J&B. This was the second or third gun purchase over the last few years from them. I always enjoy stopping by...
  • H&K Gun Shop
    5.00 star(s)
    The only place I have found 9mm in stock
    I’ll admit I didn’t even know this place existed, as I don’t tend to go into Forest Grove often. But it’s a giant (looks bigger from the...
  • Revelation Arms
    4.00 star(s)
    Depends who answers the phone
    I was given the number to Roger Loock by Beaver Creek Armory, as I needed parts I had ordered from MCarbo installed on a Kel-Tec Sub2000. On my...
  • Coastal Farm & Ranch - Cornelius
    3.00 star(s)
    Lesson learned
    I’ll take some responsibility here, as I took the employee at their word instead of doing a thorough inspection. Short story is that I asked for a...
  • MK Tactical
    5.00 star(s)
    Good guys!
    I stop in here every once in a while to see what Michael has in the clearance section, and to ask questions when I have a project in mind...
Top Bottom