Q: Mossberg Shockwave Raptor - is it a pistol in OR now?

[etrain16]

etrain16, I did not see a classification as a pump pistol. Just instructions on how to fill out the electronic form.

The ATF form 4473 actually has special instructions on how to fill out the form for these firearms. Why would an FFL disregard theses instructions?

Until Oregon officially classifies them, then the federal classification stands. As paraphrased by several lawyers.

See the letter below. Per the OSP, these are to be transferred as a "pistol pump" - that could be interpreted as a reclassification by the state - it's ambiguous at best, and, as I just noted above, that ambiguity, created by OSP's unnecessary change in the 'type' of gun transfer, could benefit the person that challenges this. Not dissimilar to the recent change by the ATF regarding the shouldering of braces on AR pistols since they created a ruling with ambiguity.

Here is the letter from OSP, dated 7/24/17 stating they are to be transferred as "pistol pump". What reason do they have to change a 'firearm' to 'pistol pump', if not to reclassify?

Plus, if you look closely, the letter CLEARLY states they are to be entered in the FICS application or phoned in as HANDGUN:

 

[The Heretic]

I'm certainly not interested in being a test case. But it brings up an interesting question - state's rights vs. the feds. Who has the final say? If the state of Oregon can reclassify a weapon, in this case making a 'firearm' into a 'pistol pump', does that somehow trump the ATF? If yes, then there would be no problem concealing a Shockwave. But does a state have the right to do that?

For the purposes of their law regarding concealed carry - yes, they can define a handgun any way they want. They can define a pumpkin as a handgun, or a handgun as a pumpkin. It is not overriding federal law because there is no federal law about whether you can carry a firearm concealed or not.

 

[Gonzales]

So let's focus on the original issue. I'll change the ops question. Can I keep a loaded 30-30 under my truck's front seat?

 

[The Heretic]

This is what confuses me, can we or can we not carry a loaded shotgun/rifle in a car with us? I have been told yes and I have been told no. Since the state classifies as a pistol I he hoped this would be a slam dunk. However the risk of being a liberal test case does not peak my interest. I would like very much to have a shockwave as my truck shotgun, but is does no good unloaded.....

The answer to your question is no - my understanding (I cannot cite the law because I cannot readily find it) you cannot carry a loaded rifle or shotgun in your vehicle.

However, by federal law, the Shockwave is not a rifle or shotgun or a handgun - it is something else (they fall into a 'loophole') - otherwise it would be considered a SBS and require NFA rules to transfer them. What OR state considers them to be is not clear to me - I suspect if push came to shove, then they would go along with the federal definition - or lack thereof. Since they are not a handgun, I doubt they can be legally carried concealed. Since they are neither a shotgun or rifle, and since they are not a handgun either, and since I cannot find the relevant law, I am not sure about carrying them loaded in a vehicle.

 

[The Heretic]

So let's focus on the original issue. I'll change the ops question. Can I keep a loaded 30-30 under my truck's front seat?

no.

two reasons - it is a rifle and it is concealed. CHLs only apply to handguns.

 

[MilitantBEEMER]

no.

two reasons - it is a rifle and it is concealed. CHLs only apply to handguns.

So a loaded ar pistol with folding shockwave blade is acceptable?

 

[The Heretic]

So a loaded ar pistol with folding shockwave blade is acceptable?

An AR/AK/etc. pistol can be concealed in WA or Orygun while loaded if the person has a CHL/et.al. because they are legally a handgun - regardless of whether they have a 'brace' or not.

 

[MilitantBEEMER]

An AR/AK/etc. pistol can be concealed in WA or Orygun while loaded if the person has a CHL/et.al. because they are legally a handgun - regardless of whether they have a 'brace' or not.

Thank you for the clarification. These asinine gotcha laws are nucking futs

 

[The Heretic]

Here is the cite for WA state:

Transporting A Rifle In A Vehicle in Washington

 

[The Heretic]

Thank you for the clarification. These asinine gotcha laws are nucking futs

The real problem - IMO - is that there are a lot of people out there (sometimes including myself), who are making assertions about what is legal and what isn't, without ever having read the relevant law, much less understanding it - they go by what they heard from someone who heard it from someone else. Half the time even LEOs don't get it right and they are the ones enforcing the laws - you would think they would read and understand it before they make assertions about it (that is what I do when someone asks me about the software I am responsible for maintaining; I say "let me look at the code").

 

[etrain16]

no.

two reasons - it is a rifle and it is concealed. CHLs only apply to handguns.

According to OFF, Oregon has no law against carrying a loaded rifle in your car. The state does consider your vehicle a 'public place', so some localities, like Multnomah County, restrict loaded guns in public spaces, UNLESS you have a CHL - which, for the purpose of loaded guns in public places (both handguns and long guns), you are exempted from. So even though a CHL is for handguns, when it comes to having a loaded rifle in your vehicle, a CHL exempts you from any restrictions made by local agencies. A bit confusing, but here is what OFF has to say:

There is no Oregon law against carrying loaded magazines. In fact, Oregon has no law against carrying loaded rifles in your car. Localities may restrict loaded carry of firearms by persons without concealed handgun licenses, but only in public places, which your car is not. IMPORTANT UPDATE.THE OREGON COURT OF APPEALS HAS RULED THAT YOUR CAR IS SHALL BE TREATED LIKE A PUBLIC PLACE AND LOCAL PROHIBITIONS AGAINST OPEN CARRY APPLY IN YOUR CAR! Also be aware that although the State of Oregon has no restrictions on loaded magazines, Portland and Multnomah County do. If you do not have a CHL, being in possession of a loaded mag or "feeding device" illegal.

 

[etrain16]

The real problem - IMO - is that there are a lot of people out there (sometimes including myself), who are making assertions about what is legal and what isn't, without ever having read the relevant law, much less understanding it - they go by what they heard from someone who heard it from someone else. Half the time even LEOs don't get it right and they are the ones enforcing the laws - you would think they would read and understand it before they make assertions about it (that is what I do when someone asks me about the software I am responsible for maintaining; I say "let me look at the code").

True, many don't read it, but it's very easy to find. Anyone can search the OAR's (Oregon Administrative Rules) regarding firearms, including restrictions and allowances for CHL's, definitions and even defensive firearm laws. OFF is a good source too. For local laws, like Multnomah County, those are also easily searchable. As for me, I try to base my answers on what I can find, hopefully in the OAR's, and not rely on opinions from people on the internet. My rule is, if it's not truly clear, I don't do it.

 

[Gonzales]

So in short, it does not mater what it is classified as. As long as you have a CHL? And there are no local ordinances prohibiting load firearms?

 

[The Heretic]

Thanks. I guess my decades in WA ingrained the prohibition such that I thought it applied in Orygun too - hence my failure to find the relevant Orygun statute.

So, if a person has a CHL then regardless of the firearm, if not concealed, then any firearm could be carried loaded within a vehicle. If the firearm is a handgun, then a person with a CHL can conceal the handgun. If the firearm is not accessible, locked in a compartment or has a lock on the firearm (trigger lock I think the statute said?), then that is okay too.

So that answers whether a Shockwave could be carried loaded in a vehicle, but not whether it can be concealed or not.

 

[etrain16]

So in short, it does not mater what it is classified as. As long as you have a CHL? And there are no local ordinances prohibiting load firearms?

In Oregon, it's good to have a CHL - the OAR's give a number of exceptions for CHL holders that go beyond handguns - and that includes long guns in public places, so long as they're not concealed. It certainly pays to read the law and understand them.

 

[etrain16]

Thanks. I guess my decades in WA ingrained the prohibition such that I thought it applied in Orygun too - hence my failure to find the relevant Orygun statute.

So, if a person has a CHL then regardless of the firearm, if not concealed, then any firearm could be carried loaded within a vehicle. If the firearm is a handgun, then a person with a CHL can conceal the handgun. If the firearm is not accessible, locked in a compartment or has a lock on the firearm (trigger lock I think the statute said?), then that is okay too.

So that answers whether a Shockwave could be carried loaded in a vehicle, but not whether it can be concealed or not.

Yeah, I wouldn't consider concealing anything that's not a pistol or handgun in Oregon. But it appears a loaded long gun in your vehicle is fine, anywhere in Oregon, so long as you have that CHL. Beyond that, the CHL gives you some good latitude in Oregon. But gleaning that out of the OAR's can take a bit of work - those exceptions are there, but they can be a pain in the rear to read - reminds me of reading electrical code, anything written by the government can be really difficult to get through.

 

[Alexx1401]

Yeah, I wouldn't consider concealing anything that's not a pistol or handgun in Oregon. But it appears a loaded long gun in your vehicle is fine, anywhere in Oregon, so long as you have that CHL. Beyond that, the CHL gives you some good latitude in Oregon. But gleaning that out of the OAR's can take a bit of work - those exceptions are there, but they can be a pain in the rear to read - reminds me of reading electrical code, anything written by the government can be really difficult to get through.

YES! That is often a huge problem with laws. They are often written by people who seem to have no idea what they are trying to regulate. Then they end up in court for some judge to decide what they "really mean". This is where it often turns into a full blown circus. Get a judge who does not think anyone but him should have a gun. Then they will just make the law say what they want. After that it,s normally up to the person to pay to take it to the next higher judge.

 

[etrain16]

YES! That is often a huge problem with laws. They are often written by people who seem to have no idea what they are trying to regulate. Then they end up in court for some judge to decide what they "really mean". This is where it often turns into a full blown circus. Get a judge who does not think anyone but him should have a gun. Then they will just make the law say what they want. After that it,s normally up to the person to pay to take it to the next higher judge.

After years of reading and interpreting electrical code, I've come to the conclusion that anyone in the government is probably the least qualified to be writing any code or law. Much of it really is a joke, some is actually useful. And the useful stuff likely was written by someone other than a government employee.

 

[Alexx1401]

After years of reading and interpreting electrical code, I've come to the conclusion that anyone in the government is probably the least qualified to be writing any code or law. Much of it really is a joke, some is actually useful. And the useful stuff likely was written by someone other than a government employee.

That is perfectly written. It is often scary to hear people who make laws talk about the subject. Sadly people vote them in though. Often for decades. The law makers don't scare me as bad as the judges though. Some times you can finally get the voters to to toss or vote in someone good. Judges are almost 100% there for life no matter what. Look at how many times in our lifetimes you see one removed from office and what it takes to do so.

 

[etrain16]

That is perfectly written. It is often scary to hear people who make laws talk about the subject. Sadly people vote them in though. Often for decades. The law makers don't scare me as bad as the judges though. Some times you can finally get the voters to to toss or vote in someone good. Judges are almost 100% there for life no matter what. Look at how many times in our lifetimes you see one removed from office and what it takes to do so.

Judges, lawyers and politicians - 3 necessary evils