Pyrodox equally corrosive as Black PowderI probably should have just asked Andy

[P7M13]

Well if it wasn't for all this dryness and just plain HOT...what's to stop you...?
I'm just glad we can still shoot at this weekend's Rendezvous...
Andy

what?
When & where?

 

[RVTECH]

Windex makes a good cleaner,

Especially when mixed with Murphy's Oil Soap 50/50 - good 'old school' BP solvent!

 

[Ownerus]

Back when I started shooting BP under the tutelage of a neighbor (think Andy plus 40 years) I mentioned my concern about the corrosive nature of BP. He corrected me, saying it's not so much corrosive as hygroscopic. It draws moisture. It does add to the moisture some salt compounds but it's nowhere near as aggressively corrosive as the residue of chlorate primers found in old (especially military) ammo. Still, a good, prompt cleaning with something water based is necessary, just not quite as much of a panic time-wise as with chlorate primers.

As for 777, I only used it one time when a different neighbor came over with his new flintlock for loading instructions. He brought along the can of 777 helpfully recommend by the sales goober where he bought the rifle. I had misgivings about it but, what the heck, might as well try it. Loaded up, put some in the pan and discovered it's pretty much non-flammable. Repeated showers of sparks failed to light the charge in the pan. So, we dumped the pan and filled it with my 4F BP . It took 2 or 3 good pan flashes before we finally got the main charge to light off. We switched to my BP and didn't make any further attempts with the "substitutes". Might be ok in a caplock but definitely poo in a flinter.

 

[xlsbob]

I dont know about rifles but in cannons pyrodex was a waste of money, it was better to just wait till got black. I've always cleaned with Dawn dish soap and boiling water then swab barrel with crisco when it dried. No rust in over 20 years of doing it that way.

 

[ageingstudent]

this is known as the pyrodex paradox













not really

I sense a new sub-forum being born:

"Just Ask Andy"

It'll be great for all of us, not so much for him. Kind of like a hairy gun toting Ann Landers.

Ann Landers--dead or alive?

 

[Lilhigbee]

Reviving an old thread, but I finally shot my new Uberti Walker last week with Allliant Black MZ. Put forty-two rounds through it. Circumstances being what they are I was not able to clean it for a bit over a week.
Note I managed to forget a powder flask so I poured the powder into a small cup and then into the measure.
I've never shot real black powder and only have a little experience with Pyrodex in my Ruger Old Army and a Hawken rifle several years ago. That being said, my opinion on Black MZ is very favorable.

Clumping. Several online reports of clumping. Yes there were a couple of clumps when I poured it into the cup, but they broke up just by touching them. No real cohesion at all.

Smoke. Oh yeah, it smokes!! Like "couldn't see the target for several seconds after each shot" kind of smoke.

Ignition. Flawless once I realized that the nipples are sized for #11 caps, not #10s.

Power and recoil. Hard to judge with no real personal comparison, but 40 grains made me smile and 60 grains (max load) was still readily manageable. Of course, at 4 1/2 lbs. unloaded, recoil isn't likely to be a problem. My friend's wife, who is a bit recoil shy, shot a 60-grain load, smiled and shot two more!! Certainly it was adequate for the task at hand, but I would definitely do some serious testing before hunting with it. Not that I doubt it's performance, I would just want to know how it compares.

Now the $64 question, how does it clean up?? Again, limited experience with anything else myself, but I thought it was really easy. Took the gun apart and started with the cylinder. Took it to the utility sink and sprayed it with aerosol glass cleaner. Filled the chambers and cuffed the end to force the cleaner through the nipples. Three sprays and cuffs and the cleaner ran clear. Turned the cylinder over and sprayed around the nipples. A couple of rinses and again he cleaner is clear. A hot water rinse and a couple more sprays into the chambers with a rinse and all is well. You can see the machine marks in the bottom of the chambers. An alcohol rinse to remove the water, towel it off and spray it with RemOil and it's done. Not a speck of anything left on it and no signs of having sat for a week uncleaned. Next was the frame. I didn't want to fill it with glass cleaner or water so I gave it a judicious wipe down with glass cleaner on rags and Q-tips, then water, then alcohol, then oil. No scrubbing necessary on any of it. A simple pass with the Q-tip or rag and it was down to the original finish. Finally the barrel. Back to the utility sink and a complete soaking in glass cleaner. Filled the barrel and blew it out a couple of times and the cleaner runs clear. Hot water rinse, alcohol rinse, towel off and RemOil. Now drag a couple of patches through it and the first one has a small amount of brown residue and the second one is clean. Drug a Hoppe's-soaked patch through it and it then a dry one and it comes out clean too. Oiled the necessary spots and reassembled it. It looks as good as the day I bought it. Keep in mind the above cleaning took maybe fifteen minutes. In hindsight I should have taken the grips off and treated the frame the same as the cylinder and barrel. It would have been quicker. I must reiterate, there was no scrubbing of any kind necessary!! All just rinse and wipe.

 

[tac]

Reviving an old thread, but I finally shot my new Uberti Walker last week with Allliant Black MZ. Put forty-two rounds through it. Circumstances being what they are I was not able to clean it for a bit over a week.
Note I managed to forget a powder flask so I poured the powder into a small cup and then into the measure.
I've never shot real black powder and only have a little experience with Pyrodex in my Ruger Old Army and a Hawken rifle several years ago. That being said, my opinion on Black MZ is very favorable.

Clumping. Several online reports of clumping. Yes there were a couple of clumps when I poured it into the cup, but they broke up just by touching them. No real cohesion at all.

Smoke. Oh yeah, it smokes!! Like "couldn't see the target for several seconds after each shot" kind of smoke.

Ignition. Flawless once I realized that the nipples are sized for #11 caps, not #10s.

Power and recoil. Hard to judge with no real personal comparison, but 40 grains made me smile and 60 grains (max load) was still readily manageable. Of course, at 4 1/2 lbs. unloaded, recoil isn't likely to be a problem. My friend's wife, who is a bit recoil shy, shot a 60-grain load, smiled and shot two more!! Certainly it was adequate for the task at hand, but I would definitely do some serious testing before hunting with it. Not that I doubt it's performance, I would just want to know how it compares.

Now the $64 question, how does it clean up?? Again, limited experience with anything else myself, but I thought it was really easy. Took the gun apart and started with the cylinder. Took it to the utility sink and sprayed it with aerosol glass cleaner. Filled the chambers and cuffed the end to force the cleaner through the nipples. Three sprays and cuffs and the cleaner ran clear. Turned the cylinder over and sprayed around the nipples. A couple of rinses and again he cleaner is clear. A hot water rinse and a couple more sprays into the chambers with a rinse and all is well. You can see the machine marks in the bottom of the chambers. An alcohol rinse to remove the water, towel it off and spray it with RemOil and it's done. Not a speck of anything left on it and no signs of having sat for a week uncleaned. Next was the frame. I didn't want to fill it with glass cleaner or water so I gave it a judicious wipe down with glass cleaner on rags and Q-tips, then water, then alcohol, then oil. No scrubbing necessary on any of it. A simple pass with the Q-tip or rag and it was down to the original finish. Finally the barrel. Back to the utility sink and a complete soaking in glass cleaner. Filled the barrel and blew it out a couple of times and the cleaner runs clear. Hot water rinse, alcohol rinse, towel off and RemOil. Now drag a couple of patches through it and the first one has a small amount of brown residue and the second one is clean. Drug a Hoppe's-soaked patch through it and it then a dry one and it comes out clean too. Oiled the necessary spots and reassembled it. It looks as good as the day I bought it. Keep in mind the above cleaning took maybe fifteen minutes. In hindsight I should have taken the grips off and treated the frame the same as the cylinder and barrel. It would have been quicker. I must reiterate, there was no scrubbing of any kind necessary!! All just rinse and wipe.

Water. H2O. Grease the cylinder arbor with, uh, grease. Wipe out the bore with an oily rag. Do NOT use any kind of petroleum-based grease - it will quickly carbonise in use into an almost immoveable crud that needs a chipping hammer to remove. My Walker dates from 1982, and I bet it still looks as good as yours.

And PLEASE do NOT leave off cleaning for a week. Carry some babywipes with you and use them before you leave the range - on the gun, that is - five minutes right there will save you weeping over a pitted bore forever.

Pyrodex?

Really DOES need a cleanup right there and then, My buddy Tom neglected his stainless ROA for a week or so, and now has a gun he can never sell to anybody except Stevie Wonder, if you get my drift.

 

[RVTECH]

My buddy Tom neglected his stainless ROA for a week or so

What exactly happened to the stainless steel from the neglect?

 

[tac]

What exactly happened to the stainless steel from the neglect?

It pitted. Pyrodex, if left on the surface of raw metal like a gun barrel, combines with the atmospheric gas to produce a number of acids.

The issue is the chlorine ions in Perchlorate.. Chlorine ions form compounds which are much more persistent than nitrate ions. Nitrate based residue is fairly easy to shift with a detergent, however chlorate based residue really needs something to neutralise it.. The traditional method for cleaning guns was boiling water and washing soda. (Sodium Carbonate..) this will react with chlorite residue to form common salt (sodium chlorate) which is readily soluble in water. [Thanks to Felix on muzzleloadingforums.com]

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I have seen a Thompson Center "GreyHawk" rifle ( A stainless steel "Hawken" style rifle )
So pitted from abuse of not cleaning right away , after shooting with Pyrodex , that the owner was only able to sell it as a parts rifle...
The stock and trigger guard were the only parts not affected with rust and pits...

Again I say use Pryodex if you must...but be sure to clean your gun , after the shooting is done...or you will regret it.
Andy

 

[RVTECH]

Interesting - it must be an issue with stainless - I once neglected to clean my BLUED, Pyrodex fired Zouave for probably a week or so and it cleaned up with no problems to the metal.

 

[tac]

YMMD.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I have seen way too many blued firearms rusty and pitted from not cleaning Pyrodex in timely manner...
I can't say this enough :
Pyrodex works...but only if you can't get real black powder.
I have never seen any advantage* of any BP substitute over real black powder.
Andy
*Other than at many places a BP substitute is the only thing available....