Purchases into a Gun Trust

[HardBall75]

Just getting my feet wet on NFA purchasing and a Gun Trust. Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Does (Can) anyone have a trust that allows a Co-trustee to purchase NFA weapons on behalf of the Trust. I thought that what I was getting, but the lawyer is now saying a Co-trustee cannot.

Follow-up, had a dealer tell me he wont sell a gun into a trust because the BATF told him he would be liable if someone not legally authorized to possess a weapon gained access through the trust. Is this common amongst dealers?

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[IronMonster]

I am just getting a trust set up. I just met with the attorney last week. I am going through NW gun Law and doing a gold (multi person/state) trust. I was told that all trustee's would be able to pick up items from the dealer on behalf of the trust. However being in Washington whoever picks up/does the back ground check for a FIREARM has to keep it in their possession as I594 means that even if ownership does not change a background check must take place for it to change possession. However with a suppressor any trustee can pick it up and any other trustee can have it in their possession because even though it is a firearm under federal law it does not meet the definition of a firearm for Washington law I594 really screwed up the trust deal in Washington it sounds like

 

[broncman]

Wow that sounds like a crock of sh*t from the mouth of a dealer. I would find another dealer and never return to that one.

Think about it the BATFE is the one who approves the paperwork not the dealer.

 

[SCARed]

Dealer has to do a 4473 for anyone picking up an item for a trust. So where's the problem for the dealer?

 

[HardBall75]

Yeah, the dealer's position doesn't make sense to me, but I guess he can run his shop however he wants. I'm just bummed because I haven't found anyone within $300 of his price.

 

[broncman]

If you don't mind what you looking at purchasing?

 

[HardBall75]

If you don't mind what you looking at purchasing?

AAC MPW 9" 300 Blackout SBR - 101999

 

[dementia]

As a dealer. This other dealers stance make no sense to me, I release a NFA item after 4473 and background check. I have never had anyone go through the CLEO route, that's a lot more work

 

[i3izzy]

AAC MPW 9" 300 Blackout SBR - 101999

I am finding them online for about $1500. Is that about what he was asking?

 

[HardBall75]

$1199 Cash - my price.

 

[broncman]

So you going to purchase it individually then transfer into your trust once you get it? If you go that route you will be paying a extra $200 stamp, so for the savings on price is it worth the extra headache?

 

[HardBall75]

No. I'm trying to get the original dealer to transfer to a second dealer, and then I'll make the purchase into the trust from him. This is becoming a pain, and I'm seriously kicking myself for not getting this done 4 months ago before this model dried up . . . . figures!

 

[Strykervet]

First off, your trust question. Yes, a co-trustee can buy and sell WITHOUT your knowledge. They have the same power as you do. My wife is a co-trustee of our trust.

However, once you make a purchase and YOU sign the Form 4 in YOUR name, then YOU have to pick it up and the 4473 also goes in YOUR name. That's how I'm told it is and that's how I've had to buy all of mine --I tried to have my wife pick up a can once but they said I had to do it because my name was on it (I also had to sign the 4473, which he said had to be in the same name as the Form 4). He said the ATF liked it this way and I trust this guy.

But the minute it's in the trust and on the Schedule A, I guess she can go turn around and sell it. Which she won't, we have it set up this way so if one of us dies it won't be an issue.

Then there's the "lifetime beneficiary" and beneficiary to the estate if something happens to both trustees. They are two different things. For me, I only have one person filling both of those categories.

Technically, as a lifetime beneficiary, he can take these items and have them on him (say for a hunting trip or a range session) along with the appropriate forms and trust documents, and use them without me present provided he breaks no laws. He cannot buy or sell items and he can be revoked at any time. I can have multiple "lifetime beneficiaries" and it's recommended you make anyone one before allowing them to use your gear, then revoke them right after (even just minutes or hours). Even at the range. It's a CYA form, so if you hand it to a felon unknowingly (he lies, gets caught red handed) you won't be in trouble or get your gear revoked because he shouldn't have had it anyway and signed a form stating all was good.

If he/she (beneficiary to the estate) takes over the trust because everyone dies, I think there's a way he can avoid all the tax stamps I think, but he has to create another trust or transfer them into his name in order to sell them or add to (now his) trust. I think either the dealer holds them and/or ATF expedites these transfers.

I don't know how this new law comes into play though. I don't loan anything out anyway, so I don't have that issue. He's just there in case something happens to us until I find a suitable heir in our family.

IronMonster, I think NW Gun Law Group is who I went through (but I think they had a different name then, I got the new card though). I got the silver with the option to upgrade a to a complete estate plan whenever I want, even years later. Sat down with a bunch of lawyers and we put it together at a board table, definitely not a DIY. Way to go on that, it's a good trust, well put together, easy to use and it's easily as important as my firearms, as silly as that sounds.

Now for your upper. If you already have the AAC can, that's not a bad upper. I'm guessing you have the SDN-6 and know how to "fix" the 51T mounts? If not, if you don't have the can yet, there are better cans out there, like TBAC's new line of titanium ones. I have both (sorta). SDN6 and 30CB9. Elite Iron is another good one, their QD is better than AAC too.

But if you have the 51T and can fix 'em already, and I have several mounts that are fixed, it's actually a very well made can, great for SBR's. For the upper, I got a Noveske 8.2" and a PRI carbon fiber triangle grip (wanted to try something different, I'm a KAC guy actually) but you can get the KAC rail in a number of different configurations. I'll build my next one with another 8.2" Noveske and a KAC URX this time with one of those Canadian collapsible HK type stocks, except this one will have a moderator, or short can (five inches). Likely a TBAC using their brakes. Anyway, I just buy regular LMT or Mega or Noveske lowers like normal and then Form 1 them by myself. They come back in about 4 months. That way I can always use my custom AR "recipe" that does me well for builds. I get no hiccups or cycling problems.

BTW, I have the AAC 16" upper w/KAC URX rail. The factory one. Plan on selling it now, never use/used it, but you could make your own using better parts like I did. My Noveske is amazingly accurate/stable and .300BLK ballistics are impressive out of an 8.2"bbl. --it's better than the 16" AAC!

Still haven't found a factory SBR I want yet that I can't build. When I do, I guess I'll Form 4 that one. Maybe a Kriss?

Good luck, and find a better dealer provided your trust is in order. Or DIY it if you have the equipment for working on AR's and use a Form 1.

 

[Strykervet]

No. I'm trying to get the original dealer to transfer to a second dealer, and then I'll make the purchase into the trust from him. This is becoming a pain, and I'm seriously kicking myself for not getting this done 4 months ago before this model dried up . . . . figures!

Those Form 3's generally come back quick for the dealer/mfg. (few weeks or so?). Then you have to start the Form 4 once your dealer gets the Form 3 and the can/item.

Sorry above post was so long winded! Just been there already!

 

[IronMonster]

First off, your trust question. Yes, a co-trustee can buy and sell WITHOUT your knowledge. They have the same power as you do. My wife is a co-trustee of our trust.

However, once you make a purchase and YOU sign the Form 4 in YOUR name, then YOU have to pick it up and the 4473 also goes in YOUR name. That's how I'm told it is and that's how I've had to buy all of mine --I tried to have my wife pick up a can once but they said I had to do it because my name was on it (I also had to sign the 4473, which he said had to be in the same name as the Form 4). He said the ATF liked it this way and I trust this guy.

But the minute it's in the trust and on the Schedule A, I guess she can go turn around and sell it. Which she won't, we have it set up this way so if one of us dies it won't be an issue.

Then there's the "lifetime beneficiary" and beneficiary to the estate if something happens to both trustees. They are two different things. For me, I only have one person filling both of those categories.

Technically, as a lifetime beneficiary, he can take these items and have them on him (say for a hunting trip or a range session) along with the appropriate forms and trust documents, and use them without me present provided he breaks no laws. He cannot buy or sell items and he can be revoked at any time. I can have multiple "lifetime beneficiaries" and it's recommended you make anyone one before allowing them to use your gear, then revoke them right after (even just minutes or hours). Even at the range. It's a CYA form, so if you hand it to a felon unknowingly (he lies, gets caught red handed) you won't be in trouble or get your gear revoked because he shouldn't have had it anyway and signed a form stating all was good.

If he/she (beneficiary to the estate) takes over the trust because everyone dies, I think there's a way he can avoid all the tax stamps I think, but he has to create another trust or transfer them into his name in order to sell them or add to (now his) trust. I think either the dealer holds them and/or ATF expedites these transfers.

I don't know how this new law comes into play though. I don't loan anything out anyway, so I don't have that issue. He's just there in case something happens to us until I find a suitable heir in our family.

IronMonster, I think NW Gun Law Group is who I went through (but I think they had a different name then, I got the new card though). I got the silver with the option to upgrade a to a complete estate plan whenever I want, even years later. Sat down with a bunch of lawyers and we put it together at a board table, definitely not a DIY. Way to go on that, it's a good trust, well put together, easy to use and it's easily as important as my firearms, as silly as that sounds.

Now for your upper. If you already have the AAC can, that's not a bad upper. I'm guessing you have the SDN-6 and know how to "fix" the 51T mounts? If not, if you don't have the can yet, there are better cans out there, like TBAC's new line of titanium ones. I have both (sorta). SDN6 and 30CB9. Elite Iron is another good one, their QD is better than AAC too.

But if you have the 51T and can fix 'em already, and I have several mounts that are fixed, it's actually a very well made can, great for SBR's. For the upper, I got a Noveske 8.2" and a PRI carbon fiber triangle grip (wanted to try something different, I'm a KAC guy actually) but you can get the KAC rail in a number of different configurations. I'll build my next one with another 8.2" Noveske and a KAC URX this time with one of those Canadian collapsible HK type stocks, except this one will have a moderator, or short can (five inches). Likely a TBAC using their brakes. Anyway, I just buy regular LMT or Mega or Noveske lowers like normal and then Form 1 them by myself. They come back in about 4 months. That way I can always use my custom AR "recipe" that does me well for builds. I get no hiccups or cycling problems.

BTW, I have the AAC 16" upper w/KAC URX rail. The factory one. Plan on selling it now, never use/used it, but you could make your own using better parts like I did. My Noveske is amazingly accurate/stable and .300BLK ballistics are impressive out of an 8.2"bbl. --it's better than the 16" AAC!

Still haven't found a factory SBR I want yet that I can't build. When I do, I guess I'll Form 4 that one. Maybe a Kriss?

Good luck, and find a better dealer provided your trust is in order. Or DIY it if you have the equipment for working on AR's and use a Form 1.

What is the 51T fix? I have 8 or so 51T mounts and my plan is for a .30 cal AAC can to be my first and use it only my smaller caliber stuff until I can buy additional suppressors

 

[SCARed]

There are 2 "fixes" I know of.
The first is to put a Viton or high temp o-ring around the base of the mount. This eliminates the wobble that people complain about. It also acts as a bit of a lock washer when the can is tightened down all the way.
The second is to install the can properly. That is to tighten it down all the way then start to unscrew it until the latch catches and locks.
I've know a couple people who started shooting with their cans and they had extreme wobble and had end cap strikes. One even had his come flying off while shooting. Once they started installing it properly, they didn't have any issues.

That being said, while the SDN6 is a very good can, there are others that are of newer design and have better mounting systems. The Saker being one if them. I'm also very impressed with the SigSauer cans.

 

[IronMonster]

While I am aware of the 51T issues I have an easy $1000 tied up in mounts so I am going to do the best I can. What I have read elsware goes along with your second coment. Many try to over tighten the can forcing the ratchet paw. At some point I will venture out into other options but to start the 51t is what I'll have to utilize

 

[SCARed]

Again, the SDN6 is a very good can. You can get a Saker as well that can use the AAC mounts. It just requires an adapter that Silencerco sells should you decide to go that way.

I just with the manufacturers would decide on a universal mount so people can mix and match.

 

[Strykervet]

Okay, here's how to fix 'em. Let me say first that a lathe is preferred over all else. Others have done this with a drill press and a honing tool (there are youtube videos). If the can will ALMOST lock (you'll see the end of the ratchet bar stick out further and almost engage the next set of teeth) then it may be possible to do this by hand as well IF you are patient, steady and know what you are doing. I use a stone and fine emery cloth and a bluing pen to see where material needs to be removed, while constantly checking fit. You won't be removing much if it almost seats and a lot of that will just be cleaning up the teeth's edge and making them softer. Slow honing by hand can take from half to one hour to fit a can tightly to a 51T mount properly so that it fits square and contacts in all the right spots.

You can do this right, it's an old school method, or you can Jim Bob it.

The more difficult it is to seat, the farther it is away from the next teeth (and you have a LOT of wobble) it pretty much needs to be put on a lathe to get a good cut. I have one that is so far out of spec and so far away from seating right that it requires a lathe to fix. I can see the bore eclipse with the can mounted, on a .308, so I refuse to use it. AAC has been less than helpful (I wanted to return this one it's so bad, but apparently you have to get a strike first!?).

I have a couple that yeah, if seated right and taken on and off a few times, they can seat a little better over time. I have a couple of 5.56mm rifles this way that I didn't elect to fix due to the wobble being so discreet and the can locking up satisfactorily for it's purpose.

My .300BLK, one fixed, one worked out of the box (an AAC factory upper) and my Grendel which I fixed. All seat well, no baffle or end cap strikes. No wobble, they are tight.

No matter how you seat the SDN-6, make SURE to press and hold the ratchet bar down when you install it so it doesn't wear the teeth down. When it's all the way in place, then let go and turn the last couple of clicks to lock it in place.

But yeah, I'd say you have enough 51T mounts, get a new can next time. Lots of good ones that I'm sure you could find use for, even another .30 can.
Beware using 5.56, I've heard of strikes with those if they wobble enough too believe it or not, despite being a .30 can. That 51T mount is just junk and I'm done with 'em.

I have several too and I have an SDN6, but I also got a TBAC 30CB9 for accuracy and for a better QD mount and a Liberty Mystic X for general purpose use. More versatility between the three as well, and I expect the Grendel to perform better suppressed with this new TBAC can vs. the SDN6, which I keep solely for SBR's and M4's now --things I don't generally shoot past 300m.

I understand fully having a bunch of mounts and the can. Use what you have. But don't keep buying mounts! Trust me, you're better off getting a new can from a another mfg. that can get QD mounts right and going that direction. Then keep the SDN-6 for it's attributes and the other for it's own. Suppressors are always a trade off anyway, so if you have really accurate rifles and a SBR's, it may behoove you to get two cans because I know I can't make this SDN6 work well on ALL my weapons --but it's great on the .300BLK SBR in particular, and M4's in general. For my more accurate rifles, I'll be glad to be done with the SDN6 on those as I expect better performance from a can made more specifically to fit the attributes of those rifles.

Good luck working the mounts, be careful and do research first if you've never done it. It's easy once you know what you are doing. DO NOT USE A DREMEL TOOL! Slow and patient by hand with stone and honing and bluing and testing, use a drill press and honing tools, or use a lathe and test occasionally (best method).