Protecting Property

[Nak]

Unless you want to drive from say, Sutherlin Oregon to Cody, Wyoming on a road trip. Or numerous other road trips. For routine commuter use electrics are great, but then a lot of commutes are a waste of time and money anyway.

Sutherlin to Cody isn't an issue. 1 hour 47 minutes charging time enroute according to "A Better Route Planner." If I was in the car I'd just plug in my destination and the car would calculate the route and charging stops in a few seconds. (In a Tesla at least.) Yes, filling with gas takes less time, but I need to stretch my legs and grab a drink when I stop.I've never had to wait more than an extra five minutes while charging on a road trip. And even then, I need that time to stretch a bit on long trips. Making the drive listed, I know I'm going to be stopping for more than 1:47 regardless of what I'm driving. Plus, I'm saving roughly 26 hours a year not ever needing to spend time fueling up. Charging at home costs me a couple of seconds of time to plug the car in.

That said, yes there a few use cases where gas cars are still preferable. Off roading. Towing long distance. Driving long distance in rural areas every day for a living. Within five years the latter case will be better served by an EV. As for long distance towing, the change is coming but I'd just be guessing if I listed a timeline for that. For normal off roading, EVs will be superior within a couple of years. For extreme off roading, I doubt EVs will get there in the foreseeable future.

Other than these caveats, EVs are simply superior to ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) vehicles. Way, way better to drive. A tiny fraction of the maintenance. (Brakes every 200,000 miles or so, if even that much. Zero coolant changes. Zero lubricant changes. No transmission to fail. Electric motor failure rates are a tiny fraction that of ICE failure rates. Etc. ) I'm paying about 1/8 in electricity what I paid for gas to run our cars. Road trips are worse, you only save about 1/2. My crossover SUV is faster around a track than a Porsche Turbo 911, and faster 0-60 than 99% of the muscle cars on the road. Better. It's like the difference between an AR15 and a muzzle loader. The muzzle loader had it's day and is fun to shoot, but which one are you taking into battle?

 

[The Heretic]

A 16+ hour trip? I would have to stop every 4 hours (or less) anyway. No way I could sit/drive for longer than that these days. I used to be able to do 8-10 hours, but not now.

Still, range would be a concern for me, and if SHTF refuel/recharge time would be an issue if I was trying to bug out as fast and as far as possible, in which case I would want a 1000 mile range (which I plan to implement on my big truck with aux tanks, etc., when I convert it to any RV).

I would like an EV for daily driving though. I rarely take long trips in a car. Last time I did was for a funeral. I might take a trip this year or next, but I may fly instead. By the time I wear out my current daily driver EVs will probably have much better range and faster recharge time with more recharge stations. Meanwhile, my daily driver spends 99% of its time at home, and cat thieves usually do not go looking for cats where I live for fear they may be shot and buried with their family wondering where they disappeared to.

 

[Dinglenutz]

Sutherlin to Cody isn't an issue.

I used that tool just now, since I generally use the Tesla planner to do this sort of what ifing. I entered a route I've done quite a few times.

ABRP

ABetterRouteplanner is the world's most popular consumer EV routeplanner - both for beginner and experienced EV drivers. And of course for anyone curious about EVs.

abetterrouteplanner.com

Here's what I got. It turns a pleasant 2 day drive into a grueling 2 day drive, and leaves me in Cody WY with a dead battery and no charge site. Approximately what I expected. Color me unimpressed.

The routine "time saved not fueling up" applies to my PHEV; I just burned the gas I put in last year, just to keep it fresh. The last tankful "lasted" about 11 months before I decided to freshen it up. I'm in line for a Cybertruck but I would never consider one as an only vehicle. Not yet.

 

[Dinglenutz]

A 16+ hour trip? I would have to stop every 4 hours (or less) anyway. No way I could sit/drive for longer than that these days. I used to be able to do 8-10 hours, but not now.

I can outlast the tank, about 600 miles on my current rig. If that changes then the math will change.

Still, range would be a concern for me, and if SHTF refuel/recharge time would be an issue if I was trying to bug out as fast and as far as possible, in which case I would want a 1000 mile range (which I plan to implement on my big truck with aux tanks, etc., when I convert it to any RV).

The problems w/ electrics will be solved, and they are the future. They are not yet solved.

• Chargers are nowhere near as ubiquitous as gas stations. See the example of hitchhiking back from Cody above. Also, this often restricts the route one can take. If the point of the drive is the journey as much as the destination, this is a big deal.
• Charge times are long. All the tap-dancing in the world isn't changing this.
• Ranges are short, which makes the long charge times even worse.

I would like an EV for daily driving though. I rarely take long trips in a car. Last time I did was for a funeral. I might take a trip this year or next, but I may fly instead. By the time I wear out my current daily driver EVs will probably have much better range and faster recharge time with more recharge stations. Meanwhile, my daily driver spends 99% of its time at home, and cat thieves usually do not go looking for cats where I live for fear they may be shot and buried with their family wondering where they disappeared to.

One of the things I like about the PHEV is I can always have a full tank of fuel, just in case.

 

[The Heretic]

I can outlast the tank, about 600 miles on my current rig. If that changes then the math will change.

My daily driver, a BMW X1, will go maybe 400 miles on one tank of gas, depending on the terrain and traffic. On a flat highway, maybe 450 or a little more. With my bad back, I just cannot sit that long in one position. With my hypersomnia I can't stay awake that long without getting out and walking a bit to wake up. Fortunately, I rarely drive more than one 100 miles any given day, and 90% of the time I don't drive at all on any given day.

But yes, range is a concern for me. And if necessary, I can put 30 gallons of fuel, or more, into the area behind the front seats, 15 gallons in three cans behind the passenger seats. Not recommended, but the cans I use never seem to leak or have fumes. So if I need to bug out due to SHTF, I can load three tanks full and make it one thousand miles, if I have to - assuming no off-road travel or being stuck in traffic (the X1 does have a fuel save - automatic shut off in certain conditions in stop=n-go). A person can't very well haul fuel like that in pure EV.

 

[ma96782]

If we go EV. We will need BIG changes to the infrastructure.

Think about it.....

So say that you and the family want to travel to your favorite vacation destination. Say that it's over a 400 mile trip (one way). Most, will/would probably not take an airplane. Rrrright, the expense of flying is just not in the budget. So, it's a "road trip". Yeah, Tesla has stations and will plot a course for you. But, don't even think about visiting those out of the way (short trip places). Or else, you'll have to stop every once in a while at the EV station and charge up. Assuming that other EVs are not taking up all of the charging spots and/or have moved on immediately after charging up. Otherwise....get in line. After much driving, you finally get to the Motel. Will you find a charging station? How many EV spots are there? Are they available? Of course (more than likely), the charging station will be an additional cost. Or maybe, you won't have a convenient Motel w/charging station. Yeah, the motel owner said the upgrades were too costly. So instead, you will have to park off property. And walk to the motel. Back and forth to the charging station or EV Garage (w/charging station). OK.....I'm tired. So, I'll take a taxi or the bus. Yeah......the motel is on the bus route (in my dream).

Awwww.......whatever. I got the picture. BUT, But, but.....Rrrrrright. It's YOUR choice and your money on the car(s) that you buy. Oh wait.

Because soon EVs will (by law) be the only NEW consumer passenger vehicles produced. Another BIG F@#^ You to the poor. Rrrright.......as if they'll buy a new car. BUT, maybe Biden will give me one? Well....Thank you. Mr Biden and Greta.

Aloha, Mark

PS.......BTW, I own a Prius and have found it adequate/excellent for my current usage. My "other vehicle" is a Chevy P/U. LOL.

 

[Heywood]

I say, go out there, get into your car and drive away. If they are under it. Oh well, if they try to physically stop you isn't that kidnapping? If they try to take you out of your car, isn't that car jacking? Act accordingly.

 

[Nak]

Here's what I got. It turns a pleasant 2 day drive into a grueling 2 day drive, and leaves me in Cody WY with a dead battery and no charge site. Approximately what I expected. Color me unimpressed.

The routine "time saved not fueling up" applies to my PHEV; I just burned the gas I put in last year, just to keep it fresh. The last tankful "lasted" about 11 months before I decided to freshen it up. I'm in line for a Cybertruck but I would never consider one as an only vehicle. Not yet.

Why is it a "grueling" two day drive in an EV compared to a "pleasant" two day drive??? I'm not getting your reasoning here. And check plugshare; there are 3 public places to charge in Cody. Not to mention wherever you're staying probably has an electric outlet. As far as an only vehicle, it depends on your use case. I still have my '92 Blazer, but I'm putting about 1000 miles a year on it. Still, those 1000 miles are things I can't do with my Teslas, or any car--ICE or EV. So I'm right there with you on this right now. We are on the list for a Cybertruck as well, but we're debating still whether it would be better to keep the Blazer for now. Two Tesla cars and a Blazer, or one Tesla car and a Cybertruck? Pros and cons both ways. As far as PHEVs, I have nothing against them per se, it's just with all of that added complexity comes less reliability.

As far as SHTF, yeah if you're packing up and leaving an ICE rig has benefits as long as the gas is flowing--which is questionable if SHTF. Look at the Colonial Pipeline as a precursor of things to come. But yes, you can pack a lot more gas into a rig and get way more range than an EV. But the likelihood of being able to charge an EV is higher than being able to buy gas. As far as staying put there's no contest. Solar panels and an electric truck and you're mobile even if the grid shuts down and gas stops flowing.

BTW, I am against subsidies for EVs or mandating them. That's expensive and asinine. Let the free market do it's job.

Regardless, my original point was that it doesn't matter what the government does. EVs are going to kill ICE in the near future (10 - 15 years) due to market forces. Over 95% of folks who test drive an EV end up buying one. Of those, 95% would never go back to ICE due to how much better an EV is over an ICE vehicle. It won't matter that for 5% ICE might be better. Demand for ICE is already plummeting. As fewer ICE cars are built, demand for gas will drop, refineries will close, the distribution network will shrink and gasoline prices will skyrocket. This will fuel a vicious cycle that will kill gasoline. In 15 years it's going to be tough to give an ICE truck or car away, simply because gas will be expensive and hard to find.

 

[cd90caprice]

I have not used this, but:

The Original Cat Security™ cat shield

Our goal is to help protect your Catalytic Converter from theft. Available for select makes and models.

getcatsecurity.com

I am all for using non-lethal force to protect property, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure ... or something.

We have been installing a lot of these at our shop. They seem to work pretty well. Have had a few that look like they were messed with but the thief decided it was more trouble than it was worth and moved on. Between the Prius and Honda element we have had at least two per week since I can remember come in with the cat stolen. We have a gen 1 Prius that's been here at least 3 months that we can't get parts for. There is a vacuum actuator on the cat that is unobtanium.

 

[Nak]

If we go EV. We will need BIG changes to the infrastructure.

Think about it.....

So say that you and the family want to travel to your favorite vacation destination. Say that it's over a 400 mile trip (one way). Most, will/would probably not take an airplane. Maybe, the expense of flying is just not worth it (not to mention the budget). So, it's a "road trip". Yeah, Tesla has stations and will plot a course for you. But, don't even think about visiting those out of the way (short trip places). Or else, you'll have to stop every once in a while at the EV station and charge up. Assuming that other EVs are not taking up all of the charging spots and/or have moved on immediately after charging up. Otherwise....get in line. After much driving, you finally get to the Motel. Will you find a charging station? How many EV spots are there? Are they available? Of course (more than likely), the charging station will be an additional cost. Or maybe, you won't have a convenient Motel w/charging station. Yeah, the motel owner said the upgrades were too costly. So instead, you will have to park off property. And walk to the motel. Back and forth to the charging station or EV Garage (w/charging station). OK.....I'm tired. So, I'll take a taxi or the bus. Yeah......the motel is on the bus route (in my dream).

Awwww.......whatever. I got the picture. BUT, But, but.....Rrrrrright. It's YOUR choice and your money on the car(s) that you buy. Oh wait.

Because soon EVs will (by law) be the only NEW consumer passenger vehicles produced. Another BIG F@#^ You to the poor. Rrrright.......as if they'll buy a new car. BUT, maybe Biden will give me one? Well....Thank you. Mr Biden and Greta.

Aloha, Mark

PS.......BTW, I own a Prius and have found it adequate/excellent for my current usage. My "other vehicle" is a Chevy P/U. LOL.

I've taken road trips to out of the way places and never had an issue charging. Yes, it takes a bit of planning, but that is rapidly changing. Big changes to the infrastructure? Some, but not that big a deal. Public charging stations are expanding exponentially, and all you need to charge at a hotel is an electrical outlet. Most motels have those, LOL

I agree with your sentiment about government regulation. Subsidies and mandates should stop. They're just politicians paying back bribes and buying votes. It doesn't matter though, market forces will kill gasoline. How many people bought steam engines after the internal combustion engine? A few, but steam died. Same thing here. ICE is dying because it's an inferior solution given today's rapidly advancing EV technology. Very, very few people want to be stuck with an ICE car after driving an EV. That's a simple fact and that will kill gasoline--regardless of government interference.

 

[Alexx1401]

One Less Of Them thanks To China made Jacks

Well that was a big let down. As soon as I clicked it said they were not going to let you see the car fall on the scum. They should let everyone see it.

 

[Dinglenutz]

I am against subsidies for EVs or mandating them. That's expensive and asinine. Let the free market do it's job.

Regardless, my original point was that it doesn't matter what the government does. EVs are going to kill ICE in the near future (10 - 15 years) due to market forces.

Those are two things we agree on, and I'll leave it almost at that. Being forced to pull off the road 7 times, find the power plug, plug in, and then reverse the process to get underway is a miserable way to go about a drive. That 7 minutes of charging time is going to cost a lot more than 7 minutes of driving time. Not to mention the spur of the moment side trips that have to be forgone if the conditions for charging are not met for that course alteration.

Future yes, present, no, outside commuters and short trips that can fit in the range.

Another example: Drive from Winston, OR to Portland, OR, drop off a passenger, turn around and come back. Can't do it without seeking out a charger someplace. Not yet ready.

But for routine driving around town, my PHEV is marvellous and an electric would be just as good.

 

[Alexx1401]

Dark humorist in me notes, 'pinned, face down, dies', and wonders if the car owner will name their car "Chauvin".

Christine for those old enough to remember
Long ago guy got an arm badly damaged in a press at work. I said we should name the press Christine. Few appreciated my humor.

 

[The Heretic]

As far as SHTF, yeah if you're packing up and leaving an ICE rig has benefits as long as the gas is flowing--which is questionable if SHTF. Look at the Colonial Pipeline as a precursor of things to come. But yes, you can pack a lot more gas into a rig and get way more range than an EV.

Not just hauling fuel/energy in the vehicle, but also being able to store a considerable amount of that same "energy" off the grid. I have a 250 gal tank for diesel (standing empty until I move, then I will fill it) 55 gal drum of treated gasoline I keep full in my shop, two 5 gal red gas cans for equipment use (lawn, genset, chainsaw) that can be hauled in the vehicle, two diesel 5 gal cans, a 5 gal kerosene can and 5 gal can for two stroke gas. I keep the tanks in my vehicles at least half full. For my 1 ton flatbed, I plan to have two 50 gal saddle tanks and two one hundred pound propane tanks (used for heating, cooking and propane fumigation of the Cummins).

Currently, it would cost quite a bit in equipment, batteries and solar panels to store that much energy for an EV (although the liquid fuel could be used for recharging, that is not very efficient, but possible). With a little bit of work, I could haul enough fuel with my truck to go from Seattle to Florida and back without refueling.

Of course, much more likely that if SHTF I would be making only monthly (if that) short trips into town, if possible. If that were the case, then an EV could be used with solar panels and batteries (or the EV itself) to store the energy to recharge. Even during the winter, even a modest solar setup would keep the EV fully charged if I only used it intermittently like that.

That said, as I stated before, I will wait for the EV I want that will do what either of my 4x4s will do now. My first EV will probably be an e-bike, then probably an AWD crossover SUV to replace my X1 when it is wore out. I may not live long enough to replace my trucks, but we'll see. I like EVs, but I will wait until they have more range, the cost comes down, recharging is ubiquitous and I have an adequate solar system at home to recharge them.

 

[ma96782]

He said Christine NOT Irene.

So.....why was I thinking of this?

Aloha, Mark

PS....but then, to my Father. "Irene" would probably remind him of......

 

[The Heretic]

Those are two things we agree on, and I'll leave it almost at that. Being forced to pull off the road 7 times, find the power plug, plug in, and then reverse the process to get underway is a miserable way to go about a drive. That 7 minutes of charging time is going to cost a lot more than 7 minutes of driving time. Not to mention the spur of the moment side trips that have to be forgone if the conditions for charging are not met for that course alteration.

I usually have to wait 10-15 minutes in line at Costco to get to the pumps and then another 5-10 minutes to get fuel. On a trip I would probably be more likely to pull into a higher cost service station and not wait that long, but it would still take at least 5-10 minutes unless I could do it for myself - not legal in Orygun because we are too stupid to pump our own fuel.

 

[ma96782]

Correct me if I'm wrong but.......

I thought that EV Batteries like to be at the almost "fully discharged" point before being recharged, in order to get more life cycles and performance from the battery?

Because, if that were the case.....
EV car owners may just choose to see longer charge times/down times between charges (perhaps more than the claimed 7 mins)? Especially, if you are running an extension cord on 110V (in an "emergency").

Then......
Since in OR, some people, are too "stupid" (not my words) to pump their own gas. Hummm.......will a "Charge Station Attendant" be required too? So the less _______ could/will maybe be tech-ed out of a job? Yeah.....someone might shock themselves and die. Not. Cough, cough...... BUT then maybe, they will still be needed, just to move the cars around (away from the charge plug station) while the owners are elsewhere.

Aloha, Mark

 

[Nak]

Those are two things we agree on, and I'll leave it almost at that. Being forced to pull off the road 7 times, find the power plug, plug in, and then reverse the process to get underway is a miserable way to go about a drive. That 7 minutes of charging time is going to cost a lot more than 7 minutes of driving time. Not to mention the spur of the moment side trips that have to be forgone if the conditions for charging are not met for that course alteration.

Given your assumption that you can make the drive without stopping seven times anyway, I'll not argue with your reasoning. (Too much, LOL.) Myself, I'm going to be making those seven stops anyway. I can't drive for 4 hours without stopping anyways, so I've never noticed any delays while road tripping my EV.

I will say that find road trips FAR more enjoyable than before and I arrive way more rested and comfortable. I can't even begin to tell you what a game changer it is to let the car do the driving. I just retired, but prior to that I drove from PDX to Seatac to work. The difference in how I felt on arrival was nothing short of amazing.

No offense, but an EV being "just as good" as a hybrid is kind of amusing, LOL. I guess for getting from point A to point B that might be true. But as far as enjoying the drive, not even in the same league, or even in the same game. A good EV is such a pleasure to drive, even if you're not going fast. A Prius, not so much. I'm glad you like yours, but an ICE killer it's not.

 

[The Heretic]

BTW - if they ever get flow batteries that are practical for EVs, then refueling would be much faster and you could store the "fuel" at home too.

 

[The Heretic]

Since in OR, some people, are too "stupid" (not my words) to pump their own gas. Hummm.......will a "Charge Station Attendant" be required too? So the less _______ could/will maybe be tech-ed out of a job. Yeah.....someone might shock themselves and die. Not. Cough, cough...... BUT then maybe, they will still be needed, just to move the cars around (away from the charge plug station) while the owners are elsewhere.

Aloha, Mark

Currently (pun intended), no - recharging does not require an attendant as it is much safer than dealing with a highly flammable and easily spilled liquid.