Private Party Rifle Purchases in WA... what am I missing?

[The Heretic]

Heck I sell stuff at gun shows all the time.
That gun may get traded 3-4 times before the end of the show.
How do I know that the guy I sold it to cares who he sells it to as much as I do?
Heck,maybe he bought it for a friend who can't legally own one,or just couldn't be there that day.
Maybe it gets stolen from the buyer's car,are you responsible for what happens with the gun?
Once the gun leaves your possession,and you have asked all the right questions,you are done with it.

If you do this at a WAC show, then if you follow the rules, you will most likely be selling only to qualified buyers.

If you do it in Oregon, then each transfer at a gun show requires a background check.

Once it is out of your hands and you covered your behind, then it is literally out of your hands and you are protected. You did the best you could. If you were really concerned about what happened after you sell it, then don't sell it at all.

 

[JackD]

Heck I sell stuff at gun shows all the time.
That gun may get traded 3-4 times before the end of the show.
How do I know that the guy I sold it to cares who he sells it to as much as I do?
Heck,maybe he bought it for a friend who can't legally own one,or just couldn't be there that day.
Maybe it gets stolen from the buyer's car,are you responsible for what happens with the gun?
Once the gun leaves your possession,and you have asked all the right questions,you are done with it.

I don't understand your point. A "Bill of Sale" protects both buyer and seller by documenting the transfer. Nothing more.

Suppose you buy a gun from a dealer, then sell it. It ends up at a crime scene and is traced back to you via the dealers records. You are the last known owner and if you don't have a BOS showing that you sold it and to whom? Well you figure out what happens next.

A "Bill of Sale" for any large transaction is a no brainer. Anything less is a "no sale" as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Nwcid]

I follow ALL State and Federal laws, no more no less.

If that is not enough and you need all theses extras why not just transfer at an FFL?

 

[The Heretic]

I follow ALL State and Federal laws, no more no less.

If that is not enough and you need all theses extras why not just transfer at an FFL?

You can be the most law abiding citizen in the world and still wind up charged with something and spend thousands in legal fees while the media drags your name through the mud. Innocent people get dragged into court all the time. Some even wind up going to prison.

Covering your posterior with a bit of precaution can keep it from getting reamed - figuratively or even literally.

Do what suits you, and let others do as they feel necessary. If that doesn't please you then no one is forcing you to deal with them.

 

[mjbskwim]

I don't understand your point. A "Bill of Sale" protects both buyer and seller by documenting the transfer. Nothing more.

Suppose you buy a gun from a dealer, then sell it. It ends up at a crime scene and is traced back to you via the dealers records. You are the last known owner and if you don't have a BOS showing that you sold it and to whom? Well you figure out what happens next.

A "Bill of Sale" for any large transaction is a no brainer. Anything less is a "no sale" as far as I'm concerned.

Nothing happens next. If you sold the gun to an individual that has a wa id and told you they aren't a felon then the court has 0 (zero) recourse
NADA
Ziltch
Bill of sale doesn't protect anyone.Maybe you made it up?

From Nwcid

If that is not enough and you need all theses extras why not just transfer at an FFL?

 

[The Heretic]

Nothing happens next. If you sold the gun to an individual that has a wa id and told you they aren't a felon then the court has 0 (zero) recourse
NADA
Ziltch
Bill of sale doesn't protect anyone.Maybe you made it up?

From Nwcid

A BOS could convince an investigator/prosecutor from charging you simply because he doesn't believe you asked and/or the buyer answered properly. It is simply your word against the person who bought it.

A BOS could also have value in court.

In this world you never know whether you are going to get a LEO, DA or judge who doesn't like guns or gun owners. Having a little extra protection can go a long ways. It might be enough to convince a LEO or DA that it isn't worth the hassle to charge you. It might convince a judge that he/she would be overturned if they didn't take the BOS into account. It might convince a jury there is reasonable doubt.

The legal process is such that any number of human beings can and will make a judgement call. The law may seem clear to you, but you get a number of other humans involved and they can make your life hell, or at least cost you a lot more money than what you sold the firearm for.

If you don't think such things are of value, then fine, don't use them - but I use them whenever I sell or buy something like a firearm or a vehicle or anything valuable that might be stolen.

 

[JackD]

Looking at "what if" scenarios....what if I sold you my gun, and you didn't want a BOS. Then after I collect your money, I decide to report the gun stolen. How do you prove you paid me for it? I don't take checks. I have proof I owned it...photos of the gun in my home, maybe with me in the photo....maybe a record at a dealer, etc. What do you have? Assuming no witness'. A BOS is a necessary document.

 

[mjbskwim]

Either way if the prosecutor and the jury are anti,you are screwed.
If not then you still have a chance

Get all the bill of sales you want,I buy and sell so many guns I would need a library.

Ya know what?
The only gun I have sold that was used for bad (maybe not) intentions was when I worked at a gun shop.
Port Townsend cleared the guy and he shot himself.Hey,I have no idea what pain he was in.I can't judge.
They called back and the owner told the lady SHE was the one that OKed it
So out of maybe,300 guns sold over the last 30 years?,the only one I have had a mistake made was by the LEO

 

[JackD]

To each his own. 300 guns in 30 years comes to 10 guns/year. Doesn't seem like much paperwork to me. But then, that's just me. 300 sheets of paper only measures ~ 1.5" thick. Small library?

 

[The Heretic]

Either way if the prosecutor and the jury are anti,you are screwed.
If not then you still have a chance

Get all the bill of sales you want,I buy and sell so many guns I would need a library.

Ya know what?
The only gun I have sold that was used for bad (maybe not) intentions was when I worked at a gun shop.
Port Townsend cleared the guy and he shot himself.Hey,I have no idea what pain he was in.I can't judge.
They called back and the owner told the lady SHE was the one that OKed it
So out of maybe,300 guns sold over the last 30 years?,the only one I have had a mistake made was by the LEO

Maybe it was a mistake, maybe not.

Off topic, but personally I support the right of any competent adult to end their own life if they wish. It is their life, if they don't own it, then who does?

But then I am a heretic, I live by a pretty basic and seemingly simple principle; I believe people should be able to do/own/see/say what they want as long as that action does not infringe on the rights of others to do the same.

 

[Flopsweat]

You guys can go around all you want, but any gun that I bought from an FFL has my name associated with the serial number. You better believe I'm not transferring it without a record of who took possession of it. I'm not going to be the one without a chair when the music stops.

 

[ChiefBoatsret]

I just sold a pistol, we both willingly filled out and signed The WA. private sales paper work. It resides in an envelope in a drawer with other important papers, not on it's way to the DOL. It will only be used if that gun is used in something bad and they come knocking on my door because my name is on it as the original buyer. The buyer has my name and signature in case the gun was reported stolen, so we are both covered. It's nothing to do with the 2nd amendment, it's all about covering your butt.

 

[thorborg]

[QUOTELooking at "what if" scenarios....what if I sold you my gun, and you didn't want a BOS. Then after I collect your money, I decide to report the gun stolen. How do you prove you paid me for it? I don't take checks. I have proof I owned it...photos of the gun in my home, maybe with me in the photo....maybe a record at a dealer, etc. What do you have? Assuming no witness'. A BOS is a necessary document.
][/QUOTE]
It aint right I tell ya. The only bill of sale a person should need is the palm of the hand against the others. If you're of a mind to do me like that, you better come out smelling like a rose and be moving out of the country cause once i'm out of jail with my life and rights ruined, I got nothin to lose, I'm comming for ya! Make no mistake, thats no placebo!

 

[GunRightsCoalition]

A BOS is not an unusual request and does provide some protection. I've used them for vehicles, firearms, and other valuables. Not for every transaction but with many of them. Unless there is a question brought up that would require proof of sale then they only reside with the persons that have an interest in them (I have a fire safe I keep them in) and not in some government database. I personally have no problem with them however at the same time each person is free to choose the requirements of a transaction and that goes both ways. Not sure if it's in this thread or another but I've stated where I draw the limit as a purchaser. I'll provide a bill of sale and in some cases may request one but if you ask me to provide a permit that is completely unrelated to the right to own a firearm then move on to the next buyer.

 

[hyrax222]

Private sales of long guns allowed between people in same state. Sales from OR to WA or vise versa, sellor or buyer must go through an FFL. Handguns must go between FFLs (OR to WA or WA to OR).

At least this is my understanding.

 

[Nwcid]

Private sales of long guns allowed between people in same state. Sales from OR to WA or vise versa, sellor or buyer must go through an FFL. Handguns must go between FFLs (OR to WA or WA to OR).

At least this is my understanding.

Not quite. This was covered in post #2, #28 and #29.

Here it is again,

From the first link I posted above, https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person's own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Private sales of ANY firearm is legal between residents of the same state (assuming that state allows it).

You can buy a long gun out of state, but to be legal it has to be done though an FFL, and has to be legal in both states.

Any firearm (legal in both states) can be sent to an FFL in the buyers state.

There is NO Federal law that says a firearm has to be shipped from an FFL, only to an FFL. Some FFL's choose not to receive firearms from non-FFL, but that does NOT make it law...........

 

[gimpyhunter]

I live in OR. If I'm buying, I want a BOS. If I get caught with a stolen gun, I want paper to keep me out of jail. I may loose my money but I won't loose my freedoms.

But requiring a permit of any kind as a buyer or seller, makes me walk away <period>

No different than with my latest purchase of a tractor. No department of motor vehicle requirements. But more and more, heavy equipment is being stolen and sold to unsuspecting buyers. Again, I might loose my money but I won't loose my freedoms.

 

[Mark W.]

I thought you could buy a rifle in Washington if you are from Oregon. Even private party. Am I wrong?

Yes you can as long as the transaction goes through either a WA or OR FFL.

THERE ARE NO FACE TO FACE PRIVATE SALES ACROSS STATE LINES.

 

[Mark W.]

FTF Private sales across state lines are illegal. ALL Sales across State lines must go through a FFL and the Buyer must complete a BGC and any other required paper work to purchase from their home state.

PERIOD

 

[feconn]

Out of state resident sale to go through FFL. Long gun, you can go buy & pick up out of state at the WA FFL. Hand gun has to be transferred thorugh FFL, i.e. an OR resident can buy in WA, but has to pick up from FFL in OR.