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Private Party Rifle Purchases in WA... what am I missing?

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by johnsland8, Mar 13, 2014.

  1. johnsland8

    johnsland8 Vancouver, WA Member

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    I'm a noob so I apologize if this is a silly question or has been covered already. I'm new to the site and haven't quite gotten efficient with the search functions here...

    Anyway, I have found a couple of rifles for sale on another site that seems to have good activity for WA gun sales. In both cases the seller says he will only sell to someone with a permit or CPL. I don't get this? A rifle is not a handgun. The laws for each are different. It seems like if you document the sale you are no more protected if someone has a permit than if they don't.

    I just purchased a new handgun from a dealer so I just went through a background check, etc. It was actually much easier and faster than I expected (first time purchase).

    Why are these private parties requiring CWP's or CPL's to sell a rifle?

    Thanks in advance for the education and information...
     
  2. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    There is no Federal or WA law that requires ID, CPL, Bill of sale or any other nonsense. We have several threads on this board on very similar topic.

    Here is what the Federal law says, https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons Please go to this link and read it.

    Here is the key point, "A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law"

    It is written like the rest of english law, innocent until proven guilty. So folks are choosing to put their own personal rules, NOT law into their sales. I personally choose not to deal with those kind of people and when I sell I follow Federal and state law. If something seems fishy, or I am "given a reason to believe the person might be prohibited" I will explore more to make them prove they are not prohibited.

    Also you are a WA member, here are all the WA gun laws, http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41 I suggest you read up and keep them linked for future reference.
     
  3. Modeler

    Modeler Molalla, Oregon Soccer Fan

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    It's a way for the seller to reasonably know that they're selling to a non-prohibited person without going through the hassle and expense of an FFL transfer and background check.
     
    Throckmorton likes this.
  4. RicInOR

    RicInOR Washington County Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    When I have done sales I have asked to "see" but not copy some form of state issued id.
    When I have bought, I would show this, but I am not going to offer it.

    How do I know you are over 18?
    How do I know what state you live in?
    I am taking a risk you are not a felon.

    Some people like of bill of sale, others not so much.

    If a sale is hinky, just walk away.

    Decide what you are comfortable with, and email the seller / buyer during your negotiations so you are both comfortable.

    +1 for NW CID above.

    To quote Mas Ayoob - "know the law better than the other guy, so you don't break it."
     
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  5. johnsland8

    johnsland8 Vancouver, WA Member

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    But these things aren't necessary for a private party, in-state, purchase. As noted above, the seller only has to "not know or have reason to believe" the purchaser is prohibited from buying weapons.

    I'm not trying to dog on anyone, but it just seems like these requirements by the sellers are only due to their own ignorance of the laws.

    The previous post kind of confirmed what I was thinking. I did quite a bit of research on state and federal gun laws before making my first gun purchase. And I've done quite a bit of research on used gun purchases, out of state purchases, etc. That's why I was surprised by these requirements from the sellers and just thought I had missed something...

    Thank you guys for the quick replies! And I will apologize again for bringing something up that had been covered already.
     
    mjbskwim and Nwcid like this.
  6. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    That is what my point was about the law. the law does NOT say you have to know. The law says you have no reason to believe they are not.

    If for some reason I suspect (reason to believe) they are under 18, they will have to prove they are not before I will sell.

    If for some reason I suspect (reason to believe) they are not in the same state, say they pull up in a car with plates from another state, how about have their listed location on this site different then yours, ext, I will ask to see some proof they are.

    You are NOT taking a risk of them being a felon unless you have reason to believe that they are. But if you have reason to believe you need proof they are not, example a CPL.

    But if you have NO reason to suspect, you are in 100% compliance with Federal and WA state law. I believe OR is almost exactly the same.
     
    johnsland8 likes this.
  7. Modeler

    Modeler Molalla, Oregon Soccer Fan

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    You're totally correct. But you asked why a person would ask for this requirement and that is why. Not endorsing the practice, just answering the question. In the end it's the seller's property and he/she can require whatever they like of the buyer. Even if the requirement is to do the truffle shuffle before concluding the deal :)
     
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  8. GunRightsCoalition

    GunRightsCoalition Vancouver Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    FWIW, if someone asks me to show my CPL I will not deal with them. I am not a felon and had a top secret security clearance in the past. I will not however concede that my right to keep and bear arms (A right I served to protect) is limited and refuse to support that by obtaining a CPL. Anyone that asks me to is supporting those that would choose to infringe on that right. I'll go to an FFL instead. When I sell a firearm I look for two things. First do they appear to be stable? Second are they a resident of my state? If so then I do not ask for anything else as I presume that they are innocent until proven guilty.
     
  9. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I am one of those folks that asks for ID when I sell to a private party. So far every sale I've done, the buyer has expressed no issue with this - and it is something I state clearly in my ad, so there are no surprises.

    Why do I do this? Because how can I be expected to make a snap decision about the character of a person I'm just meeting for the first time? I am not qualified to make that judgement in a short conversation unless they do something out of the ordinary. I can at least have some assurance they are who they say they are and they are likely legal to own. I do it partially for the law but more for conscience. I would not like to find out I just armed the next Kip Kinkel, for example.

    So, for that reason, I will continue to ask for them. Those that don't want to show them don't have to buy from me. No hard feelings.
     
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  10. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Nope, not ignorance of the laws, it's called CYA. If you show me a CPL that matches you DL then I can be pretty much assured that you are not a "prohibited" person. It's for MY protection as a seller.
    If you don't want to show a DL and CPL then I won't sell to you unless we go through an FFL.


    Deen
    NRA Life Member, Benefactor Level
    Defender of Freedom Award
    NRA Recruiter
    Second Amendment Foundation Member
    Washington Arms Collectors Member
    Arms Collectors of SW Washington Member


    "A gun is like a parachute. If you need one and don't have it, you'll probably never need one again!"
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
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  11. johnsland8

    johnsland8 Vancouver, WA Member

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    Wasn't really talking about just asking for ID. I don't have a problem with that. That shows they are old enough to legally purchase a firearm and shows that they are an in-state resident. I think that's a reasonable request. It's requiring a CPL that I have an issue with. But I understand everyone has a right to ask for whatever they want and everyone has a right to not do business with them.

    I have two Federal ID's. Both of which took extensive background checks and fingerprinting to obtain. It's not the principle of having a CPL that I disagree with. I just see no reason for me, personally, to have one and I was taken back by the number of private party ads that were requiring them. So, I thought I might have misunderstood the law or something.

    I'm glad to get the clarification and the debates and opinions or interesting as well.
     
  12. GunRightsCoalition

    GunRightsCoalition Vancouver Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Ask me for a CPL and we will not only not go through an FFL but we simply will not do any business whatsoever. I have no patience for anyone that would support infringements on our rights.
     
  13. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    `SxA
    Not a problem, you can go buy from someone else then!


    Deen
    NRA Life Member, Benefactor Level
    Defender of Freedom Award
    NRA Recruiter
    Second Amendment Foundation Member
    Washington Arms Collectors Member
    Arms Collectors of SW Washington Member


    "A gun is like a parachute. If you need one and don't have it, you'll probably never need one again!"
     
  14. GunRightsCoalition

    GunRightsCoalition Vancouver Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Fair enough as that is your right and I support that right even if you don't support my rights.
     
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  15. shootnscoot

    shootnscoot Wa Well-Known Member

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    Seeing a CPL simply tells you that the person you are selling to is not a felon, or at least wasn't at the time they passed their background check. It is peace of mind, like seeing a good credit report on someone you are renting your house to. Is it required? No, but it's a prudent thing to do.
     
  16. bnsaibum

    bnsaibum Corvallis, OR Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer

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    Isn't a background check through an FFL an infringement?
     
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  17. johnsland8

    johnsland8 Vancouver, WA Member

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    IG: "If I should wear a helmet, why don't I wear two helmets??? That should be twice as good."
    RG: "NO"... "two helmets puts too much strain on your head and neck and can do more damage than not wearing one at all"
    IG: "Oh, well, I'm going to do it anyway, it makes me feel better..."

    That's the problem with ignorance... those that have it can't really see it. It's been proven throughout our history.
     
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  18. GunRightsCoalition

    GunRightsCoalition Vancouver Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Asking for one for a sale that does not require one is playing right into the hands of those that wish to limit our rights. It is not necessary for me to get one to exercise my right and I can still do so while staying within the limits of our current laws. (Here in WA anyway as we are still allowed to carry without having a CPL) It's a little inconvenient sometimes but as long as I can continue to do so I will not support anything where I must concede that it is okay to infringe my right. I don't find it prudent to ask for one, I find it downright offensive. As I said above though it is your choice who you sell to and what you require of them before doing business and I will support your right to do so. I do not have a CPL nor do I plan to get one anytime soon for the reasons stated so I just will not be doing any business with anyone that asks for one. If I-594 gets passed here in WA then I may revisit that.
     
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  19. GunRightsCoalition

    GunRightsCoalition Vancouver Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Yes it is. Unfortunately there isn't enough support to do anything about it at this time. We can continue to fight any new legislation and slowly work to restore the rights that are being infringed but it can't be done in one fell swoop. Not peacefully anyway.
     
  20. 1990Turbo

    1990Turbo St.Helens Active Member

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    I thought you could buy a rifle in Washington if you are from Oregon. Even private party. Am I wrong?