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Primers

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by trixter, Mar 12, 2012.

  1. trixter

    trixter Giles County Member

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    I'm probably sure there have been a lot of (Ford vs Chevy) Brand W vs brand C primer discussions on here, put please help with my delema.
    The last time I went to my supplier he was out of Brand C, so I got Brand W. The went through my progressive reloader nicely and the first bunch , about 100 worked just fine. I went back to the reloading and again all went well, but at the range, I encountered my first 'DUDS'. Bang, Bang Click???. Hand ejected the cartridge and looked it over all is well, there is a dent in the primer. I doesn't seem to be as deep as the fired ones, then Bang, Bang, Bang, Click! OK now I am just upset. The 'DUD' primer looks just like the other one that didn't go off. The fired ones were just fine looking. One opinion is that the Brand W "DUDS" are Metal too hard primers. If so I guess I have to go thru all of them and those that fire are good, and those that don't are too hard???. Any of those I will over haul with my Inertia hammer, and try again with Brand C. Also these were tried in another pistol of the same brand and, same problem. I am ready to hear what you have to say.
     
  2. taylor

    taylor Willamette Valley Well-Known Member

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    A good topic. I know Lee recommends against using certain primers with their presses. I personally like CCI and I don't know why exactly but they seem better to me.
     
  3. motoman98

    motoman98 Gresham, OR Active Member

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    Why not let us long time reloaders in on the brand, then we can start a discussion with other reloaders.
    Are you sure they were seated to the bottom of the pocket?
     
  4. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    I'll be honest, any time you're getting dud rounds, there are only two reasons why that happens... your primer cups are too hard, and your firing pin strike too light (cowboy shooters have this problem a lot because they lighten up the hammer spring to make it easier to cock), the second reason is, you are having contamination issues and are getting oil or solvents on your primers. Or they were improperly stored before you bought them.
     
  5. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    Just from the post I take it Brand C is CCI, and W is Winchester? Just guessing...

    I've used just about every primer under the sun, and have not had any problems.

    Me thinks AMProducts is on the right track...might check both.
     
  6. XSubSailor

    XSubSailor SW WA Active Member

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    I've used every brand of primers on the market except Tulas...the only brand I've ever had problems with are Wolf Small Pistol.

    I had bought 10K of them during the last "ammo shortage." They generally worked fine, but I ran into one batch of 1000 primers that was inconsistent, especially with some of my lightly sprung pistols...they were great for practicing malfunction drills, but I was sure glad when they were finally used up. I have no plans to buy any more of them. Currently CCI, Win, Feds and Rems are in my primer locker.

    Could brand W be "Wolf?"
     
  7. Pepe-lepew

    Pepe-lepew Mid Valley Active Member

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    If he gets light primer strikes on the duds only, the cups must be harder. Check the seating depth of the primers. If they feel like they are not seated all the way, you may have mixed up rifle primers with pistol primers. Push the lightly striked primers out and check the color inside the cup with new primers in a unopened pack.
     
  8. Sheldon

    Sheldon California Member

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    It may be the primers did not get seated all the way as well. What press are you using? CCI, if that is the "C" brand, are known to be one of the harder cupped primers out there.
     
  9. rrojohnso

    rrojohnso Vancouver, WA Member

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    What kind of gun are we talking about? Is the striking mechanism consistent with the same intensity each time the trigger is pulled (looking at the rounds that were struck - are the primer cups equally dented compared with the rounds that failed)? Is the firing pin clean and the springs tight, with no carbon deposits on the pin?
     
  10. deadshot2

    deadshot2 NW Quadrant WA State Well-Known Member

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    I hear a lot about "hard" primers but have always wondered just how "hard" a piece of brass that's less than .62mm can really be when hit by a firing pin.

    All of my firearms are unaltered and frequently cleaned. I use whatever primers are available but more and more am starting to use "Brand W" meaning Wolf/Tula.

    Yes, they feel a little more stiff when seating them but have yet to have a "dud". Before condemning a primer, take a good look at the firearm. For semi auto's with "inertial firing pins" the pin needs to be clean with the firing pin channel spotless. Also take a look at the spring that returns the firing pin to the proper position for the hammer to give it a full strike.

    Also, take a good look at your primer tool. Many tools have enough flex in them to not fully seat a primer in the pocket.

    Primers are a simple device. Three pieces. A cup, an anvil, and an explosive compound. Not a lot to go wrong. More likely a case of operator contaminating, not seating properly, or the firearm not giving a full strike.
     
    Gunner3456 and (deleted member) like this.
  11. bmw2

    bmw2 Mount Vernon, Wa Active Member

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    My 629 will not reliably ignite Winchester primers. Component primers only though, factory ammo works fine. All other brands ignite reliably. Gun is all stock too. I've heard this problem from other reloaders too. Funny thing is, I have put spring kits in my Blackhawks and they shoot winchesters just fine.
     
  12. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    Primers are actually a remarkably complex device, while simple in concept, the modern primer is a miracle of materials science, chemistry, metallurgy, and modern manufacturing methods. A relatively small number of companies produce billions of primers every year, by comparison, the only thing that maybe comes close is canned beverages.

    But to address the first question, primer hardness is very specific, typically it requires a firing pin that's hemispherical, with a tip of between .042" and .062" and a minimum impact sensitivity of 17in/lbs of force to set it off. It has to be soft enough to flow, and not crack, yet hard enough to withstand rough handling and insertion into the cartridge case at high speed. Usually I want a primer to be between 110 and 160 DPH/Knoop, if the cup is much softer than 90, it can create some major headaches, a while ago (when the primer crunch was really on) I got shipped 300K large pistol primers, and a particular lot was too soft, they kept crushing, and not seating properly on the automated machines, it became such an issue before we even finished 1000 rounds, we made the decision to send them back to the manufacturer (winchester) in the hopes they would be replaced within a month. It hurt... hurt really bad...

    As far as the wolf/tula primers, I havn't had good experiences with them, they too frequently get jammed in the primer tubes (usually varnish on the side, or the cup is just out of round enough), and are dusty when fed through automatic tube fillers. But I know a lot of people who use them and don't complain as much as I do, I'm an absolute stickler for quality in components, and the wolf primers just never measured up. However, I will tell you the cups on the wolf primers are usually on the soft side, ~110DPH so for you cowboy shooters with light hammer springs... Just stay away from my precious CCI arsenal primers :)
     
  13. deadshot2

    deadshot2 NW Quadrant WA State Well-Known Member

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    And yet others swear by Wolf and Tula primers. Look at the number of long range shooters that state "Russian" when listing the components of their favorite 1,000 yard loads. Yesterday I shot a comparison test of my favorite load using CCI BR-2's and Tula Large Rifle primers. The Tula's were better than the BR-2's in all aspects. Group sizes were the same but Tula gave me lower SD, ES, and MAD.

    As for them sticking in primer feed tubes, the only thing I noticed are the anvils are not seated as far as the "US made" primers. A dillon primer tube will only hold about 98 large rifle primers instead of the 100 of the others.

    I still use the BR-2's for my "bug hole" shooting but for everything else I can't see paying as much as $15/box more for a primer that in many cases doesn't even work as good. I rate my primers by cost of purchase, whether they all go "BANG", and the results over the chronograph. So far, the Feds, Rems, CCI's, and "Windcutters" haven't shown me that they're better. Just cost more.
     
  14. trixter

    trixter Giles County Member

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    I am so thankful for all of the information you have posted. It is great. I also am amazed at how the primer problem solved itself when the gun is very clean vs a dirty gunked up firing pin and spring. Automotive - non-chlorinated brake cleaner spray will dissolve and force crud from that area. Clean as a whistle and just a "Little Dab'll Do Ya" Hoppes gun oil (just to keep things slick), will persuade even those dented primers to perform their function. No more bang, click; OhOh. So I really do want to thank all of you for your time and 'treasures' and forgive an old dog for not knowing, or remembering to clean his newly acquired pistol.
     
  15. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    CCI are the hardest primers, Federal are the softest and most sensitive
     
  16. Sheldon

    Sheldon California Member

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    What type/model firearm was it by the way??