Primer Recharging Project

[awshoot]

PM me an address i will ship you some 38s if need be.

Appreciated, but I'm good -- I haven't been to the range in a month so making some empties sounds like a treat. ;-)

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

absolutely!

 

[Lesliet]

@awshoot , excellent work, I am full of respect for your persistence. Makes me think I might want to contribute some effort to automating the process, once my CNC mill arrives. Be nice to have a setup that packs 100 at once, eh? And a better way to separate anvils and cups. Or make them.

 

[Member 34319]

Not going to lie, I've been saving all my spent primers now!!!

Serious work done here! Kudos AWShoot.

Look forward to see some rounds go bang with the reprimers.

 

[awshoot]

Some time ago I was thinking about cups and started with whether I could find material. I measured the Federal SPP cup material at 0.4 mm which is 0.01575" thick. This measurement was with calipers not a micrometer so I wouldn't think it is accurate 5 decimal places and because there is a flat side to a caliper prong, and I was measuring a round wall, my measurement could be a little bit over the actual thickness.

Anyway, material. Easy to get 0.015" brass sheets which are probably close enough: https://www.amazon.com/Sheet-10-0-015-Brass/dp/B0006N6WJE

In my mind I can envision a die set with a dimple in one half and a prod in the other (I don't know what the real words should be for this type of device) squeezing sheet brass into a cup. What I can't envision because I have no experience with this sort of thing, is a good way to cut the cup out of the sheet. Maybe somebody here has ideas for that?

EDIT: or maybe, you cut a disc first and then form?

EDIT: I was meaning to quote this when I posted the above:

... And a better way to separate anvils and cups. Or make them.

 

[3MTA3]

Some time ago I was thinking about cups and started with whether I could find material. I measured the Federal SPP cup material at 0.4 mm which is 0.01575" thick. This measurement was with calipers not a micrometer so I wouldn't think it is accurate 5 decimal places and because there is a flat side to a caliper prong, and I was measuring a round wall, my measurement could be a little bit over the actual thickness.

Anyway, material. Easy to get 0.015" brass sheets which are probably close enough: https://www.amazon.com/Sheet-10-0-015-Brass/dp/B0006N6WJE

In my mind I can envision a die set with a dimple in one half and a prod in the other (I don't know what the real words should be for this type of device) squeezing sheet brass into a cup. What I can't envision because I have no experience with this sort of thing, is a good way to cut the cup out of the sheet. Maybe somebody here has ideas for that?

EDIT: or maybe, you cut a disc first and then form?

EDIT: I was meaning to quote this when I posted the above:

How about a die that forms and cuts at the same time? You need one size that could mount and work in a standard loading press for the single stage guys and another that would work in a Harbor Freight hydraulic style press for higher volumes.

 

[Mike7b]

Something on the lines of a gas check maker should work. One cuts the disk, another die forms the cup. Easy peasy.

 

[awshoot]

How about a die that forms and cuts at the same time? You need one size that could mount and work in a standard loading press for the single stage guys and another that would work in a Harbor Freight hydraulic style press for higher volumes.

Something on the lines of a gas check maker should work. One cuts the disk, another die forms the cup. Easy peasy.

These! A primer cup is just a really small gas check.

Video shows process of forming, attaching, but most interestingly, he goes over how the dies are actually made.

 

[awshoot]

Nice -- detailed info on how to make gas check dies: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200965-Easy-to-build-gas-checkmaker

Including drawings: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/att...430dbe401afc9&attachmentid=71640&d=1369601586

 

[deadeye]

This guy had success with caps:

Maybe try these, I remember as a kid the white compound came out fairly easy.

 

[arakboss]

Maybe try these, I remember as a kid the white compound came out fairly easy.


View attachment 799604

I think the white is a protective coating and there might be brown (the good stuff) underneath. The prime-all kits seem like a much better source of the good stuff.

 

[awshoot]

I think the white is a protective coating and there might be brown (the good stuff) underneath. The prime-all kits seem like a much better source of the good stuff.

TLDR: The primer recharging packs are a better deal than caps and easier I think because you don't have to disassemble anything to get priming compound. If I was going to dissemble anything for priming compound, I'd take apart 209 shotgun primers or .50 BMG primers, both of which are available for order if you look around.

------------

I paid $20 for the package I bought and I think the .22 reloader brand is similar in price (or was last time I looked). Including bags and stickers minus a single 6.42 grain batch measured according to instructions, I have 980 gr of material left. If these work OK at 0.20 gr per primer, that would be enough stuff to make 4900 primers. That seems like a lot of primers and is making me think I should have used more compound but I used the amount described in the instructions (1/3 of the small measure which weighed out to 0.20 gr).

Theoretically, my first 6.42 grain batch should be enough for 32 primers but I had some waste in transferring from mixing surfaces and spillage (it ain't easy pouring powder into a primer cup) but even with those losses, I had enough for 20 (17 completed, one popped to test if it would go bang, two weight tests, and enough residue to scrape up another primer).

If I only manage 20/32 efficiency, I should get 4900*0.625 primers, or about 3000 primers, which works out to 2/3 of a cent each.

Caps:

192 for 6.98, 3.6c each (assuming one is enough): https://www.tintoyarcade.com/super-bang-ring-caps-refill-192-shots.html?search=caps&description=true

 

[arakboss]

TLDR: The primer recharging packs are a better deal than caps and easier I think because you don't have to disassemble anything to get priming compound. If I was going to dissemble anything for priming compound, I'd take apart 209 shotgun primers or .50 BMG primers, both of which are available for order if you look around.

------------

I paid $20 for the package I bought and I think the .22 reloader brand is similar in price (or was last time I looked). Including bags and stickers minus a single 6.42 grain batch measured according to instructions, I have 980 gr of material left. If these work OK at 0.20 gr per primer, that would be enough stuff to make 4900 primers. That seems like a lot of primers and is making me think I should have used more compound but I used the amount described in the instructions (1/3 of the small measure which weighed out to 0.20 gr).

Theoretically, my first 6.42 grain batch should be enough for 32 primers but I had some waste in transferring from mixing surfaces and spillage (it ain't easy pouring powder into a primer cup) but even with those losses, I had enough for 20 (17 completed, one popped to test if it would go bang, two weight tests, and enough residue to scrape up another primer).

If I only manage 20/32 efficiency, I should get 4900*0.625 primers, or about 3000 primers, which works out to 2/3 of a cent each.

Caps:

192 for 6.98, 3.6c each (assuming one is enough): https://www.tintoyarcade.com/super-bang-ring-caps-refill-192-shots.html?search=caps&description=true

The 22 reloader guy said a bag of theirs would load about 2000 primers or 22 cases.

 

[awshoot]

The 22 reloader guy said a bag of theirs would load about 2000 primers or 22 cases.

Maybe different weights of material or maybe he suggests more than 1/3 of a small measure per primer? I'm guessing the latter as the bags look to be similar in size to what I have -- wondering if I'll have some hangfires when I test these.

 

[awshoot]

First Results!

Load, .38 Special:

• Fiochi brass
• 4.5 gr Accurate #2
• MT Golden Bullet 125 gr. JHP
• COAL: 1.446"
• Primer: varried

Series with different primers:

A: Fed GM100M​

B: Fed 100​

C: CCI 550 (magnum small pistol)​

D: Not-annealed primer cups, squeege method in the 8-hole grate, roughly 0.2 gr. priming but with less precision than individually measured.​

E: Annealed primer cups, individually measured, 0.2 gr priming compound.​

​

I also made some primers with roll caps -- the first one resulted in a bullet lodged halfway down the barrel. The chopstick I carry in my bag was not sufficient for a range fix and so the day's testing ended there.​

Velocity
(FPS) (blanks are error readings) (Series in columns, shots in rows) (Ruger SP101 with 4.2" barrel)

​	A​	B​	C​	D​	E​
1​	868​	850​	​	740​	634​
2​	​	840​	939​	598​	​
3​	872​	826​	911​	714​	805​
4​	906​	772​	872​	752​	794​
5​	884​	823​	908​	529​	655​
6​	860​	849​	​	740​	816​
7​	839​	857​	905​	770​	797​
8​	​	853​	897​	780​	750​
ES​	67​	85​	67​	251​	182​
AVG​	871.5​	833.8​	905.3​	702.9​	750.1​
SD​	22.6​	27.9​	21.7​	90.2​	75.3​

Shot D5 (marked in red): there was an ever-so-slight delay between hammer drop and ignition. Not as much as a flintlock, but long enough to be noted by human senses.

Targets (15 yds, resting butt of gun on a bag, single action):
EDIT: I must have been angled when I took the picture because the ruler doesn't back up what I measured with the caliper -- the ruler makes the groups look larger than the caliper. Weird.


A lot to digest and it's dinnertime anyway.

 

[partsed]

Two bottles filled to the top with spent small pistol primers!!

 

[awshoot]

Some thoughts about today's results.

Extreme Spread:

I'm thinking I should redo this test with a different powder -- I like Accurate #2 because it is clean and it takes so little powder -- it's very economical -- but I wonder if the ES I see is due to the shells being basically 1/4 or 1/3 full. I'd appreciate thoughts on this -- even though it is not the time to go buying powders, I do have Accurate #5 and #9 (probably not appropriate) as well as some Bullseye. Maybe Longshot (although I have that for my shotshell reloading). My Hornaday book goes up to 7.6 gr of Accurate #5. Bullseye max is 5.3, but maybe it is bulkier.

Roll Caps:

After today's fiasco with the roll cap primers, I'm very skeptical of those now. Maybe if the case was fuller with powder, but definitely not with a light load of low volume powder like A#2.

Grate Method:

The hand measuring method produced less ES than the grate method, but I think that may be down to practice and using a liquid that doesn't evaporate as quickly as acetone -- I had to re-wet the material partway through squeegeeing the compound into the grate and we're talking maybe thirty seconds into the process. Next time I will try 70% isopropyl.

The issue with the hand measuring method is that it is extremely tedious.

Annealing v. Not annealing

I think annealing is risky -- it takes just a touch of heat and if you go to far, they just crumble into red hot fragments. I think the firing pin dimple is less obvious in the annealed primers, but I don't know if this means it is stronger, or just more thinned out and thus more aesthetically pleasing. I don't care how they look.

I don't think the difference in accuracy between not-annealed and annealed was related to the annealing, but was instead, related to the more accurate measurement of priming compound. As the CCI 550 data shows, just having more pop in your primer bumps the speed up.

Accuracy:

Despite the ES, I think with practice these would be competitive. The hand measured primers did basically the same accuracy as the GM100M primers. I do find it interesting that the non-match less expensive Fed 100 had a group size about 80% the size of the GM100Ms. When I was seating them, I noticed that the Match primers slid into the primer pocket with less force than the Fed 100s. The Match primers clearly aren't exactly the same as the regular ones, just made by more experienced employees. Something else is different about them.

I was quite pleased with CCI 550s -- best group. I would say felt recoil was maybe a little more snappy, but maybe that's because I was looking at the chronograph and seeing higher velocities. It still felt like a nice plinker and I wouldn't have noticed any snappiness if I had been shooting a box or two of those by themselves.

Anyway -- I just about doubled my remaining supply of commercial primers for plinker use now that I see it's no issue to use the magnums in plinker .38s.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

 

[awshoot]

And last, the primers, before and after. Or at least some of the before -- I forgot to take a picture before I was down to my last three commercial primers. In the first pic below the three on the left without black marks on the case head are CCI 550s and all the remainder are reprimers -- the cases with black sharpie marks are roll-cap primers. Then the next 8 to the right of the CCIs are non-annealed reprimers, the 8 on the far right are annealed reprimers.

In the second picture with the shot primers, the order is, left to right, eight of each, GM100M, Fed100, CCI550, Nonannealed Reprimer, Annealed Reprimer.

The imprint on the reprimers is interesting -- it's as if the entire dome of the primer collapsed.

Pictures are: beforeish, after, closeup annealed primers fired, closeup not-annealed primers fired.

 

[awshoot]

And one last post. Gun Cleaning. Tell me if I'm going overboard.

I took apart the revolver almost completely -- took off grips, hammer spring, removed hammer, removed trigger housing, removed crane, and separated they cylinder. Then I doused them in Windex and scrubbed, rinsed with Windex, and scrubbed again, several repetitions for all the parts. After finishing each, I used compressed air to blow dry. Then I sprayed liberally with Hoppes aerosol lubricating oil, wiped them down, hit them with compressed air to blow off the oil (and hopefully any remaining water) and drive it into every crevice. Repeated twice more. Put a dab of grease on parts that have something rotating, and reassembled. It's as clean as the day I bought it.

I didn't measure the time because immediately prior I had worked on extracting the stuck bullet caused by the roll cap primer and just forgot to check, but I bet I spent an hour and half.

Do I need to be this paranoid about corrosive primers? I can't imagine they did all that every time in the old days.