Pre-Estate Sale - transfer on a non-serialized firearm

[Lazyfaire]

Run Forrest Run!!

 

[Ura-Ki]

HAHAHA! Flaming Red Flags abound
First red flag, it's a M-16, and not a AR-15, not likely, but possible?
(That's gonna be easy to tell right off.)
No SN, means it's NOT a M-16, hard Stop, more like a ghost gun made to replicate some version of the real deal someone likely got issued at some point
Oregon "Allowing" ONE ghost gun, NOPE, Oregon has ZERO authority to regulate anything related to any ghost guns, nor the number you may build/own
Not needing an FFL because it has no SN, Big Red Flag, ALL firearms transfers must go through a FFL, or risk serious jail time, with no SN, again, likely a ghost gun replica, and NOT legal to sell with out an SN, Hard Stop!

 

[Yarome]

... likely a ghost gun replica, and NOT legal to sell with out an SN, Hard Stop!

I dunno if that's entirely true, is it? I could be wrong, but the last understanding I had was that there is no federal law rending a homemade firearm (or a pre 1968 firearm) without a serial number as "illegal" to transfer. Obviously the ATF wants them serialized and continually "requests" FFL's to serialize anything that passes through their hands, but not a legal requirement.

I believe there are FFL's that will not handle a transfer because the water is muddy and they want their books all nice and tidy under scrutiny, but not explicitly "illegal". I've read from FFL's that they simply put "NSN" or "NSN-pre 1968" in the serial box without issue.

There is a lot posted on the subject, but this seems to cover it pretty well and is consistent with my understanding. Not that I haven't been wrong before or claim to know every Federal/Oregon law and satatue.

[Snip]
"What about a gun I make for myself and later transfer?
Short Answer: No

Long Answer: My research indicates there is no federal law that requires a personally made firearm that was manufactured for personal use to have a serial number of other marking before you sell or transfer it to another person. However, the BATFE muddies the water on this one because of the way they phrase certain things, and that people do not read the underlying CFR referenced by the agency.

However, when directly questioned about the requirement, BATFE has stated that no serial number is required in this specific case. I suggest reading the additional information below."

The full article goes into much more depth of the different facets of just how muddy it get's but, the above is pretty much the "nutshell".

 

[Ura-Ki]

Yup, kinda murky!

I dunno if that's entirely true, is it? I could be wrong, but the last understanding I had was that there is no federal law rending a homemade firearm (or a pre 1968 firearm) without a serial number as "illegal" to transfer. Obviously the ATF wants them serialized and continually "requests" FFL's to serialize anything that passes through their hands, but not a legal requirement.

I believe there are FFL's that will not handle a transfer because the water is muddy and they want their books all nice and tidy under scrutiny, but not explicitly "illegal". I've read from FFL's that they simply put "NSN" or "NSN-pre 1968" in the serial box without issue.

There is a lot posted on the subject, but this seems to cover it pretty well and is consistent with my understanding. Not that I haven't been wrong before or claim to know every Federal/Oregon law and satatue.

[Snip]
"What about a gun I make for myself and later transfer?
Short Answer: No

Long Answer: My research indicates there is no federal law that requires a personally made firearm that was manufactured for personal use to have a serial number of other marking before you sell or transfer it to another person. However, the BATFE muddies the water on this one because of the way they phrase certain things, and that people do not read the underlying CFR referenced by the agency.

However, when directly questioned about the requirement, BATFE has stated that no serial number is required in this specific case. I suggest reading the additional information below."

Oregon law Does in fact require ALL firearms transfers be done through an FFL regardless of SN or Curio status, trumping fed law! Some I e wanna chime in on the SB# that made it law? Any way, as to the Those home made Guns havi g a SN, not until you go to transfer it does it require a SN, that hasn't changed, YET!

 

[Yarome]

Yup, kinda murky!

Oregon law Does in fact require ALL firearms transfers be done through an FFL regardless of SN or Curio status, trumping fed law! Some I e wanna chime in on the SB# that made it law? Any way, as to the Those home made Guns havi g a SN, not until you go to transfer it does it require a SN, that hasn't changed, YET!

Yeah... ALL transfers have to go through an FFL, but a SN is not legally required to perform the transfer... is what my understanding is. Not that an FFL won't want to deal with it, or that a misinformed OSP officer doing the check might not to be willing to process one without a SN (I dunno), but "technically"... no law on the books actually requires it or makes it "illegal".

OSP "wanting" a SN on it doesn't make it "illegal" not to have it.

Does an FFL have to deface a pre-1968 firearm with a serial number before they can sell it to someone? (Not being sarcatic.. I dunno) LOL

If a SN was required at the time of mfg then it's required for a transfer, but home made, a SN is not required at the time of building and are not a licensed "mfg" or FFL.

 

[Yarome]

Sorry for the thread hi-jack. I'm done.

As to the OP, something is definately off, but sounds more like complete ignorance rather than someone trying to pull one over on you. If you're interested, there's no harm in going over to eyeball it and see what's what. Good opportunity to educate a nimrod talking out their lower extremity as well.

They'll thank you later.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Yeah... ALL transfers have to go through an FFL, but a SN is not legally required to perform the transfer... is what my understanding is. Not that an FFL won't want to deal with it, or that a misinformed OSP officer doing the check might not to be willing to process one without a SN (I dunno), but "technically"... no law on the books actually requires it or makes it "illegal".

OSP "wanting" a SN on it doesn't make it "illegal" not to have it.

Does an FFL have to deface a pre-1968 firearm with a serial number before they can sell it to someone? (Not being sarcatic.. I dunno) LOL

If a SN was required at the time of mfg then it's required for a transfer, but home made, a SN is not required at the time of building and are not a licensed "mfg" or FFL.

Correct on the requirements for an SN for non serialized firearms prior to 68! I have bought several, most shops simply list the firearm only by Brand and model, and Current Caliber, say Mauser and model it is closet to, Mod 98, caliber .270 Win, and under the SN, they some times write No SN, or. SN not required! I have spoken to many FFLs who have gotten audited and they all said the ATF dosnt care unless it's a modern type firearm that would/should have an SN, otherwise they simply don't care about the old Mauser Sporters built when the SN was stamped on the barrel and then the barrels were changed along with caliber! I have had several FFLs write in Remington Sporter, and call it good!
A lot of 1903 Springfield's have had their SNs damaged or made un readable by sporterizing them back in the day, or covering them with scope mounts, same same, the ATF dosnt care!

 

[s1xty7]

Yeah... ALL transfers have to go through an FFL, but a SN is not legally required to perform the transfer... is what my understanding is. Not that an FFL won't want to deal with it, or that a misinformed OSP officer doing the check might not to be willing to process one without a SN (I dunno), but "technically"... no law on the books actually requires it or makes it "illegal".

OSP "wanting" a SN on it doesn't make it "illegal" not to have it.

Does an FFL have to deface a pre-1968 firearm with a serial number before they can sell it to someone? (Not being sarcatic.. I dunno) LOL

If a SN was required at the time of mfg then it's required for a transfer, but home made, a SN is not required at the time of building and are not a licensed "mfg" or FFL.

If you're wrong then we're in the same boat because that has always been my understanding as well (of the current rules we play by in Oregon). A serial number is encouraged when you make a firearm for personal use to make any tracking and transfer later easier, but it is not an absolute requirement.

 

[Ura-Ki]

If you're wrong then we're in the same boat because that has always been my understanding as well (of the current rules we play by in Oregon). A serial number is encouraged when you make a firearm for personal use to make any tracking and transfer later easier, but it is not an absolute requirement.

Correct, until you go to transfer it, then it's required by state law!

My Non SNed AR "Ghost Gun" is perfectly legal, until I go to sell it, then I have to have it engraved or otherwise add a SN to a prescribed depth, most laser ingravers don't care deep enough to be legal BTW!

 

[Ura-Ki]

If you're wrong then we're in the same boat because that has always been my understanding as well (of the current rules we play by in Oregon). A serial number is encouraged when you make a firearm for personal use to make any tracking and transfer later easier, but it is not an absolute requirement.

Correct, until you go to transfer it, then it's required by state law!

My Non SNed AR "Ghost Gun" is perfectly legal, until I go to sell it, then I have to have it engraved or otherwise add a SN to a prescribed depth, most laser ingravers don't etch deep enough to be legal BTW!

 

[Yarome]

Correct, until you go to transfer it, then it's required by state law!

That's where we differ. I'm not aware of it being "required by state law". It is preferred, desired, and pressure placed on FFL's to serialize them, but no "law", State or Federal, that require it or makes it illegal to transfer an unserialized firearm.... unless.... it was required at the time of mfg. Home builds do not. The only illegality being if it was built with the intention to sell it.

The FFL is also not required to serialize it since they were not the mfg. The same as an FFL taking in a pre-1968.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Pig in a poke. Even if the "M-16 " is an Anderson blem build, there might be a stack of primers sitting in the garage that everyone is clueless too.

Go take a gander, but I'd bring a copilot and be ready for an attempted robbery.
Just me and my instincts.

 

[jbett98]

I have an old vintage 22 rifle that doesn't have a serial number. I can gift it to a close relative without going through a BGC in Oregon.
So, not all firearms need a serial number or a BGC.

 

[Gprm1911]

Appreciate all the helpful comments and I feel more educated. I'm a noob when it comes to firearms. Gonna walk away from something that seems to be more trouble than it's worth.

Thanks again, appreciate ya'll

btw, where would the serial number normally be on this type of firearm?

 

[Gprm1911]

Was the m16 full auto also?

No, not full auto

 

[Gprm1911]

Some machine guns that are found in attics or under beds after someone dies aren't all illegal.
They may have a tax stamp and a lawyer versed in NFA laws can reach out to the ATF to establish if it does have one.
The lawyer acts as a go between you and the ATF while the issue of legality of the firearm is proven and who the lawful heir will be.

How is a tax stamp associated with any particular gun without a serial number?

 

[s1xty7]

Appreciate all the helpful comments and I feel more educated. I'm a noob when it comes to firearms. Gonna walk away from something that seems to be more trouble than it's worth.

Thanks again, appreciate ya'll

btw, where would the serial number normally be on this type of firearm?

Typically it would be on the left side of the magwell (with the barrel facing away). Image below borrowed from the interwebz. If it was an 80%, there might not be one or it could be located anywhere on the lower receiver (the part with the trigger and magwell).



On an actual M16:

 

[Gprm1911]

Typically it would be on the left side of the magwell (with the barrel facing away). Image below borrowed from the interwebz. If it was an 80%, there might not be one or it could be located anywhere on the lower receiver (the part with the trigger and magwell).

View attachment 1226312

On an actual M16:
View attachment 1226331

Yeah, none of that stamped information is on the gun. Only Safe and Fire

 

[s1xty7]

Yeah, none of that stamped information is on the gun. Only Safe and Fire

Based on the lack of stamping and it not being full auto, I'm pretty confident this is an 80% build which needs to be transferred at an FFL under Oregon law. Lack of serial number does not make it illegal, but sounds like most FFLs would want a serial number added prior to doing the transfer. If the price was low and you were familiar with the platform, it might be worth it. Otherwise, if you were interested in an AR-15 style rifle, I'd buy one made by a major manufacturer from a reputable FFL. Let someone else hassle with all the misinformation and hoops needed, if it is even legit.

 

[Gprm1911]

Based on the lack of stamping and it not being full auto, I'm pretty confident this is an 80% build which needs to be transferred at an FFL under Oregon law. Lack of serial number does not make it illegal, but sounds like most FFLs would want a serial number added prior to doing the transfer. If the price was low and you were familiar with the platform, it might be worth it. Otherwise, if you were interested in an AR-15 style rifle, I'd buy one made by a major manufacturer from a reputable FFL. Let someone else hassle with all the misinformation and hoops needed, if it is even legit.

What is an 80% build?