Pre-'64 Winchester

[HaveGun]

WOW! A J K Cloward rifle- THAT IS AS FINE A RIFLE AS YOU CAN own (imho). I don't think he is in business any longer, but not sure. I think he used to build rifles for 1000 yard competitive shooters, as well as the general public.

My vote goes to Al Biesen...

 

[Olderguy]

My vote goes to Al Biesen...

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very nice- does it shoot as well as it looks. My buddies 338 mag made by JK Cloward shoots 7/8 inch groups at 100 yards. This is why I am so impressed with the JK Cloward rifles.

 

[No_Regerts]

In all reality, after having owned representations of M70s from pre and post 1964, I have developed my own opinions.

The pre-64 M70, and I'll even go on a limb and say the pre-60 M70s, are nice rifles. I prefer CRF because I like to control the speed of the case being ejected. Go slow and it angles easily into my hand and into my cartridge box for reloading. Run the bolt smartly and the case will go flying. This is the value of CRF to me. Not the feed, but the eject. I want that case OUT if I need a follow-up.

The angle of the bolt handle on pre-64s can interfere with low scope mounting depending on the size of the rear scope lens. It can be dished out a bto solve this. The rifles since the 80s are angled differently and there is no issue mounting the scope low.

I prefer the trigger design that was available until 2008. The new "MOA" trigger feels great and is easy to adjust, I just don't care for enclosed trigger housings. Especially where it gets cold and damp.

I'm not a fan of the barrel knuckle on the pre-64 standard weight rifles. That's 4 screws. I much prefer the current one-piece bottom metal with 2 action screws.

Current rifles seem to take much less effort to get them to shoot well. They have recessed crowns as well. Stock design, hands down, benefits the current rifle. The pre-64 stock is a bit clubby. The pre-64 "featherweight" deserved a stock worthy of the name.

All standard long action M70s have a shorter action than I'd like. Their own cartridge, the 300 Win Mag, barely fits. The M700 has a full length action and gives you plenty of OAL. Oddly enough, the M700 short action is cramped while the M70 short action is roomy.

Give me a 2010 sporter weight barreled action and stock; a pre-2008 trigger group, steel one-piece oberndorff bottom metal...and I'd have what I would consider the perfect M70.

 

[orygun]

Somewhat related to a pre-'64 Winchester model 70 is my model 50 J.C. Higgins 30/06 rifle produced by Belgium's Fabrique Nationale using a commercial 98 Mauser action and 22 inch chrome lined barrel from High Standard.
It was an attempt by Sears and Roebuck to muscle in on Winchester's ever popular model 70, but lacked the graceful stock and checkering.

Here's a review on it:

J.C. Higgins Model 50 & 51

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I had one in 270. Very solid gun. Don't know why I didn't warm up to it.

There is an aftermarket bolt part that will eliminate the Mauser rear of bolt safety lever when you install a new trigger with the side lever safety switch.
I didn't know about it when I installed the Sportsman Timmney trigger.

The guy I sold the 270 to did just that. I would have too, if I'd have kept it.

My vote goes to Al Biesen...

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Nuthin like one of O'Connor's favorites. Looking at that gun it's easy to see why.

In all reality, after having owned representations of M70s from pre and post 1964, I have developed my own opinions.

The pre-64 M70, and I'll even go on a limb and say the pre-60 M70s, are nice rifles. I prefer CRF because I like to control the speed of the case being ejected. Go slow and it angles easily into my hand and into my cartridge box for reloading. Run the bolt smartly and the case will go flying. This is the value of CRF to me. Not the feed, but the eject. I want that case OUT if I need a follow-up.

The angle of the bolt handle on pre-64s can interfere with low scope mounting depending on the size of the rear scope lens. It can be dished out a bto solve this. The rifles since the 80s are angled differently and there is no issue mounting the scope low.

I prefer the trigger design that was available until 2008. The new "MOA" trigger feels great and is easy to adjust, I just don't care for enclosed trigger housings. Especially where it gets cold and damp.

I'm not a fan of the barrel knuckle on the pre-64 standard weight rifles. That's 4 screws. I much prefer the current one-piece bottom metal with 2 action screws.

Current rifles seem to take much less effort to get them to shoot well. They have recessed crowns as well. Stock design, hands down, benefits the current rifle. The pre-64 stock is a bit clubby. The pre-64 "featherweight" deserved a stock worthy of the name.

All standard long action M70s have a shorter action than I'd like. Their own cartridge, the 300 Win Mag, barely fits. The M700 has a full length action and gives you plenty of OAL. Oddly enough, the M700 short action is cramped while the M70 short action is roomy.

Give me a 2010 sporter weight barreled action and stock; a pre-2008 trigger group, steel one-piece oberndorff bottom metal...and I'd have what I would consider the perfect M70.

The other thing I noticed about CRF compared to push feed is that it keeps a newbie from short stroking. I bought my nephew a Savage 110 and it took a while for him to understand that the bolt needed to keep coming back after that case comes flying out. Once he figgered it out, it ran fine.

I need to pull the action out of the stock on mine and remove that barrel boss nut and screw. I didn't when I bedded it, but I'm sure it was a mistake leaving it in. As stupid as it seems, that barrel boss is one of the characteristics that I love about the Pre-64 Standard rifle. It's part of the reason the beautiful Lightweight I had didn't stick around.

 

[No_Regerts]

I had one in 270. Very solid gun. Don't know why I didn't warm up to it.

The guy I sold the 270 to did just that. I would have too, if I'd have kept it.

Nuthin like one of O'Connor's favorites. Looking at that gun it's easy to see why.

The other thing I noticed about CRF compared to push feed is that it keeps a newbie from short stroking. I bought my nephew a Savage 110 and it took a while for him to understand that the bolt needed to keep coming back after that case comes flying out. Once he figgered it out, it ran fine.

I need to pull the action out of the stock on mine and remove that barrel boss nut and screw. I didn't when I bedded it, but I'm sure it was a mistake leaving it in. As stupid as it seems, that barrel boss is one of the characteristics that I love about the Pre-64 Standard rifle. It's part of the reason the beautiful Lightweight I had didn't stick around.

Hehehe, short-strokin'......

 

[orygun]

In .250 Savage, you'd really have something there.

Here ya go, Spit!

GunBroker.com - Error

www.gunbroker.com

A measly $6,500.






Holy Cow!

 

[DeanMk]

In .250 Savage, you'd really have something there.

Its sad that it's not a more commonly found cartridge.
.250 Savage can do pretty much anything.

 

[orygun]

Its sad that it's not a more commonly found cartridge.
.250 Savage can do pretty much anything.

Most of Newton's stuff isn't very well recognized, but was way ahead of it's time. I was flabbergasted that Lane Pierce wrote about the 30 Newton and using that case for revamping a 300 PRC rifle in the recent Shooting Times.
A good handful of 30 Newton brass and a 300 Win bolt for my 77 MKII could get me to dump my '06AI for the 30 Newton. I'm way late to the party, but when I had a 375 Ruger and then bought a 30 Newton round I thought, "Oh, I should neck the 375 down to 30 cal." Guess I wasn't the only one because that's where the PRC came from.
Still, saying that I have a 30 Newton sounds pretty exotic.

 

[Spitpatch]

Here ya go, Spit!

GunBroker.com - Error

www.gunbroker.com

A measly $6,500.





Holy Cow!

Told ya.

 

[skywag]

WOW! A J K Cloward rifle- THAT IS AS FINE A RIFLE AS YOU CAN own (imho). I don't think he is in business any longer, but not sure. I think he used to build rifles for 1000 yard competitive shooters, as well as the general public.

I had heard that Jim Cloward has eye problems. I should call and say hello It has been many years.

 

[Rem725]

Yeah, marketing. And economy. They followed Remington's "pre 62 Model 700" aka the 721, 722, 725.

 

[gmerkt]

circa 1983 Mod 70 XTR in '06 in the safe that is as nice a firearm as I own. High gloss bluing, gloss finished monte carlo stock, machine cut checkering, jeweled bolt, fit and finish is really nice. With good ammo, it is sub MOA, easy. The push feed bolt has never misfed. The XTR's were not super grade, just gussied up a bit. I would put this particular rifle up against any other Winchester, from any era.

Model 70 XTR Featherweight in .257 Roberts made in 1982. All are heads and shoulders above anything I could afford to buy off the rack today.

I don't recall if the XTR line came out when Olin still owned Winchester Repeating Arms, or if it came out under US Repeating Arms, the employee-owned company that made Winchester products from 1981-89. In any case, lots were made during the 1981-89 USRA era in Models 70 and 94. XTR was a finish upgrade, they were nice enough. The Model 1894 XTR's are pretty sought after now.

My issues with 1981-89 USRA era Model 70's were with the wood. Three of mine had stock defects. One, the blank had been placed in the jig wrong and the cut-outs were all done on an angle so the barreled action sat in it wrong. That one had to go back to the factory. Another, the nose of the stock was milled wrong so that one side was prouder than the other. Third one was a M70 Carbine that wasn't milled out enough in the barrel channel but that one was easy to fix.

late '60's Mod 88 in the safe that I wouldn't put on my worst enemy. Winchester did learn the error of their ways and made some outstanding rifles.

The Model 88 came out in 1955. I've read that as a later design, the intention from the beginning was to make it as economically as they could. So when the 1964 redesigns came along, the Model 88 wasn't much affected. Pre and post 64 guts are the same. The pre 64 stocks are nicer, with cut checkering vice the stamped design on post 64. The pre 64 blue finish is nicer.

The push-feed M70s, especially those of the late 80s were good. Something to think about is how the M700 came out in the early 60s and was nothing but a machined tube with a washer as a recoil lug. Using a plunger ejector and small spring steel extractor, it was much easier to manufacture

When you get right down to it, Remington did the same thing as Winchester did in revising product lines to save money. The difference being, Remington started doing it around 1950, not 1964.

Question - where does the "pre 64 claw type extractor" fit into the story? I've heard the phrase, but don't know the real differences. Also, IIRC, you could buy a Model 70 during the 90s that featured the older type of extractor?

The pre 64 Model 70 had a Mauser-type external extractor (controlled round feeding - CRF). Post 64 had an internal extractor in the bolt head. Having which gave it a stronger bolt head that completely surrounds the cartridge case head (and is often ignored by pre 64 fans), this is the "push feed" bolt. The push feed was used into the 1981-89 USRA company era. Shortly after FN took over USRA circa 1991, they introduced a premium Model 70 that featured the original CRF bolt. But they continued to make the push feed bolt models at the same time. The Connecticut plant was closed by FN in 2006. Later, Model 70 production was resumed in South Carolina, then shifted to a Browning factory in Portugal where they are made now. So far as I know. all the FN-made Mod. 70 rifles since 2007 have the CRF bolt.

 

[HaveGun]

I don't recall if the XTR line came out when Olin still owned Winchester Repeating Arms, or if it came out under US Repeating Arms, the employee-owned company that made Winchester products from 1981-89. In any case, lots were made during the 1981-89 USRA era in Models 70 and 94. XTR was a finish upgrade, they were nice enough. The Model 1894 XTR's are pretty sought after now.

I remember when my dad gave me the rifle, he pointed out the logo on the buttstock, saying it would make the rifle more sought after in the future. Perhaps he was referring to the buy out you mentioned?

 

[gmerkt]

I remember when my dad gave me the rifle, he pointed out the logo on the buttstock, saying it would make the rifle more sought after in the future. Perhaps he was referring to the buy out you mentioned?

Yes, that's likely what he meant. That logo on the pad went away when USRA took over and changed to their own. I'm not an expert nor advanced collector of M70's; the immediate post 64 rifles weren't all that nice in finish. I think around 1968, WRA made changes and improved them. There was a modification made to the push feed bolt design as well. So WRA rifles made in the 1970's were pretty okay, but of course many people compared them unfavorably to the old, expensive way of making things. One of the factors that drove Olin to sell WRA was labor disharmony. But Olin was pretty smart. They've never sold the Winchester trademark. They still own it and license out it's use.

 

[baker3gun]

...
Shortly after FN took over USRA circa 1991, they introduced a premium Model 70 that featured the original CRF bolt. But they continued to make the push feed bolt models at the same time.

Huh. I bought one new in approx 1993. 7mm mag. It had the BOSS tunable muzzle device and the "pre 1964 claw type extractor", which was pushed heavily by the dealer. I was more clueless then, but I bought it.

This happened before I got into reloading. Federal Premium sold ammo with a 168gr Sierra boat tail hunting round. I think it was 168. Long time ago.

A mentor told me to watch for sales at Coast to Coast, and buy 100 rounds of the same lot when it was on sale. I think I bought 140.

It took me a box and a half of ammo to zero a Vari X III and tune the Boss gizmo. That round was good for well under 1moa out to 400 yards. My first elk I ever shot was a small 6X at 400 yards across a small canyon near Leidy mountain near Moran Junction. It's the same elk that a collared griz ran me off of before i got the last front quarter; mentioned in another thread on this board.

I wish i had kept that rifle, but i sold it about 2005 when the Leupold failed. I got a free replacement scope, and sold the rifle along with 2 remaining boxes of the ammo, and bought 2 Savage rifles. Not as nice, but they shoot just as good.

Thanks for the info!

 

[orygun]

Told ya.

I'd buy it just to make you happy, but my pockets aren't that deep. Really cool, though. I am a fan of Mr. Newton and his cartridges. I'm also an Ackley fan and his stuff is usually easier to duplicate, so there I am.

For now.

The pre 64 Model 70 had a Mauser-type external extractor (controlled round feeding - CRF). Post 64 had an internal extractor in the bolt head. Having which gave it a stronger bolt head that completely surrounds the cartridge case head (and is often ignored by pre 64 fans), this is the "push feed" bolt. The push feed was used into the 1981-89 USRA company era. Shortly after FN took over USRA circa 1991, they introduced a premium Model 70 that featured the original CRF bolt. But they continued to make the push feed bolt models at the same time. The Connecticut plant was closed by FN in 2006. Later, Model 70 production was resumed in South Carolina, then shifted to a Browning factory in Portugal where they are made now. So far as I know. all the FN-made Mod. 70 rifles since 2007 have the CRF bolt.

When Winchester re-introduced the "claw", the line was called "Classic", like I mentioned earlier. I don't remember what company was in control, but I think it was a fairly new deal in the late 90's.

 

[orygun]

Told ya.

And like usual, Mr. Spitpatch is spot on.

 

[gmerkt]

When Winchester re-introduced the "claw", the line was called "Classic",

That's the one. Early 90's under FN management.

Before they closed the Connecticut factory, FN-run USRA came out with some interesting stuff from time to time. Such as the 9410 lever action, a Model 94 in .410 bore. Not long before they shuttered that factory, they had a line of Model 94's with reintroduced features. I don't recall the name, might've been "Traditional" but they some had rifle length barrels, I think there was one with octagonal bbl.

The newer Featherweights are simply gorgeous,

At one time, I had a USRA Mod 70 Featherweight made in the 1980's, in .223. It was a wonderful rifle.

 

[gmerkt]

I bought one new in approx 1993. 7mm mag. It had the BOSS tunable muzzle device

I remember those, that was an FN idea. Which seems like a sound one. I believe they were also offered on Browning rifles, a corporate commonality thing. I wonder why they didn't catch on more. Maybe not that many hunters could see the benefit of fine tuning. Some people might not have like the aesthetic of something attached to the end of the barrel. In that respect, they were before their time what with muzzle brakes and suppressors now being the rage.

 

[Spitpatch]

With a brother living in Alaska, it was a regular event that I'd go North each year or so to hunt. His home in Wasilla was "Base Camp" for these excursions (Caribou, Sheep, Pike, etc.). Yes, "hunting Pike": that's what HE called it and if you've ever done it, that's precisely what it amounts to, including careful stalks and approach, formidable equipment, an element of danger from the game itself, etc.

The gentleman's agreement I had with him is that he'd get a new gun each time I'd come up (usually bringing a partner or two...or three). He'd hunted most of his early time up there with a pump Remington 760 in .308 and swore by it. Through careful conversations I extracted from him his idea of his dream Alaska gun:

This being in the '90's, his fantasy was one of the new "Classic" Model 70's (Claw extractor controlled feed), Stainless Steel, Leupold 1.5-5x, chambered in .30-06.
"I can stumble into almost any trapper cabin up here and find a few shells" was his logic. Hard to argue, and for Orygun's benefit, one of the few attributes the pedestrian cartridge has.

A Dall Sheep hunt it was that year. I bought the Winchester. Outfitted it as per his specifications. Loaded for it and tested it. Accuracy was outstanding, especially with 165gr Partitions. Got it up to him early Summer and in August we hunted. By that time he had cheerfully digested my handloads and I don't believe he ever loaded for the gun again. His stalwart ammo (with consideration toward BIG STUFF: read, Moose and Griz) was factory 180gr Winchester FailSafes. The gun shot them at least as well as my efforts. This is/was a BadArse bullet: Steel shroud over a lead core and monolithic forward section, hollowpointed and coated, and the brass nickeled.

And the gun spoke for itself as to the epitome of a "Business Rifle", product of a dream and perfect in every way. One of Winchester's BEST EFFORTS.

As to what happened to it upon Brother's passing, I struggle to even speak of it. Such are dreams come to fruition: often fleeting.