Practice and accuracy

[CLT65]

I've been shooting handguns for well over 30 years, and always considered myself a reasonably decent shot. I had come to the conclusion over time that 4" groups at 25 yards was quite acceptable, and 3" was really good.

In recent years I've been practicing more, and re-learning some basics about things like sight picture, grip, and trigger control. It's interesting how you improve when you practice, and practice right. 4" at 25 still seems fine for some guns, 3" for most, but I find myself shooting 2" or better with some guns enough to know that it's completely doable. My best was a 10 shot group from a CZ75, of about 1.5" center to center, and the other day 6 rounds from a S&W 586 in 1.5", and 5 of those were about 1". I can't do that every day but I've done it often enough to know it's achievable with practice (all from a rest). I've even been able to keep them in about 3" (@25yds) with my 3" Model 29, a gun that I've never found easy to shoot accurately.

That said, I don't generally get hung up on tiny little groups, It's just something I get into once in a while, usually when working up a new load. I'm primarily a recreational shooter. I don't compete, hunt, or train for combat. I mostly just shoot for fun, and improving accuracy is an enjoyable test of skill. I have been thinking that I need to get faster. I watch these guys (like some of you all) who can shoot fast and accurately. That's pretty impressive.

What's your standard of accuracy, for the average handgun?

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[sobo]

What's your standard of accuracy, for the average handgun?

Using USPSA as my standard, I figure if I can shoot 85-90% of the available points in a COF in a time that puts my Hit Factor above 3.0, then I'm doing well enough to handle myself in a street/home invasion encounter.

 

[P7M13]

It used to depend on the pistol. Some, I was glad to see everything on the man target at 25 yards. Others, I expect to see a ragged hole at 7 yards. I used to think I could shoot because I could shoot the knots out of plywood at 10 yards.
Last fall, I was observing a pistol competition at a gun club I belong to in PA. First they were doing slow and timed firing at 25 yards. Then it moved to the fifty. Using strong hand only, off hand, these guys were shooting sub 2" at 50 yards. Targets would rotate open, RO would announce "commence firing" and you could watch these guys plug the x ring. Friggin' amazing.
I'm watching this through my binocs, thinking, "hell, I can't even shoot that well offhand with a rifle." Humbling, to say the least.

 

[HaveGun]

I bench rest every gun a 25 yards I intend to use for carry. I like to see what the pistol is capable of. My standard is 2" or better. My P365 will barely do it. My G19 will do 1", 5-shots, at 25 yards, with a rest. My previous carry pistol was a S&W M&P40c and it would do it, but with no real consistency.

 

[ron]

What's your standard of accuracy, for the average handgun?

I started shooting handguns from the bench seeing how good of groups I can shoot. Revolvers mostly. Started shooting
competition. I practice all off hand now. You will learn how to take a little more time on the trigger for the longer distance shots.
In order to make good hits on target. 'A' zone (USPSA) or "0 down" on the (IDPA) targets. I started out being pretty accurate
shooter but shooting fast was a whole new game. Also shooting from different positions and strong hand /weak hand.
IMHO shooting competition is challenging and good training.

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[Alexx1401]

Now days almost all my shooting is indoors so 50ft max. I can't see the sights in there any more worth a damn. So with my full size hand guns if I can keep things fast in an 8" target I'm happy with 30ft for so. Slow fire if I can keep them in half that I call it good for the day. Now with my sub compact and mouse guns? Hell I am really working on it to keep them in the 8" at all. It's why I am such a big fan of PCC's and optics. With a PCC, even with crude sights I can still make groups that I like. Slap an optic on one and I sometimes have other shooters coming over to see if they are in the presence of an expert. Until they see I am shooting a PCC with an optic, so anyone can shoot that well
Have no shot outdoors in a good while. Really need to get out again see how I can do if I can see the damn sights better.

 

[CLT65]

Last fall, I was observing a pistol competition at a gun club I belong to in PA. First they were doing slow and timed firing at 25 yards. Then it moved to the fifty. Using strong hand only, off hand, these guys were shooting sub 2" at 50 yards. Targets would rotate open, RO would announce "commence firing" and you could watch these guys plug the x ring. Friggin' amazing.

That would be a level of skill that I can't even hope to aspire to. I have pretty good eyes, but not that good!

I bench rest every gun a 25 yards I intend to use for carry. I like to see what the pistol is capable of. My standard is 2" or better. My P365 will barely do it. My G19 will do 1", 5-shots, at 25 yards, with a rest. My previous carry pistol was a S&W M&P40c and it would do it, but with no real consistency.

That's a really high standard, and great shooting! I feel like I've really accomplished something if I can hold my groups near or under 2" @25yds, with a favorite gun. I have a S&W Shield 9mm that I bought as a carry gun, but simply can't get anywhere near that kind of accuracy with it. I do well to keep most shots inside 4" with it, but I figure 25 yards is a long ways for a gun like that, so precision accuracy doesn't seem as important with it.

I started shooting handguns from the bench seeing how good of groups I can shoot. Revolvers mostly. Started shooting
competition. I practice all off hand now. You will learn how to take a little more time on the trigger for the longer distance shots.
In order to make good hits on target. 'A' zone (USPSA) or "0 down" on the (IDPA) targets. I started out being pretty accurate
shooter but shooting fast was a whole new game. Also shooting from different positions and strong hand /weak hand.
IMHO shooting competition is challenging and good training.

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I know the CVSC has USPSA matches. I've been thinking about checking it out for a while. I've never shot competitively before; I'm probably just about the least competitive person you'll ever meet.

 

[HaveGun]

That's a really high standard, and great shooting! I feel like I've really accomplished something if I can hold my groups near or under 2" @25yds, with a favorite gun. I have a S&W Shield 9mm that I bought as a carry gun, but simply can't get anywhere near that kind of accuracy with it. I do well to keep most shots inside 4" with it, but I figure 25 yards is a long ways for a gun like that, so precision accuracy doesn't seem as important with it.

I bought a Performance Center Shield 9mm a few years ago for a carry gun that came with a defective barrel. Barely did 12" groups at 25 yards. Was great at 7 yards. I sent it back and it came back barely able to do 8". I sold it to someone, with full disclosure, that was of the mindset that threats are never more than 7 yards away, He's happy, and I'm happy.

My G19 is a tackdriver at 25 yards with a red dot installed, my aging eyes notwithstanding...

 

[asiparks]

Borrowed shamelessly from Sniper's Hide:

Sidearms & Scatterguns - SH handgun Dot Torture challenge

So another thread took a tangent that inspired me to start this. If you want to play, here are the rules: http://pistol-training.com/drills/dot-torture If you use a striker-fired or SA pistol, use the original Dot Torture target If you use a DA/SA pistol, use the TDA Dot Torture target If...

www.snipershide.com

targets:

Dot Torture

This is a test that I got from a range officer at the NRA range one night. I showed it to Todd who liked it more than I did. He figured out that it originally came from David Blinder at personaldef…

pistol-training.com

I've tried it twice, using the original target and my Baer. I started at 5 yards because I thought I was better than I was... I also didn't time myself, but went at a "relaxed" pace- I scored 34- Can't hit squat with my weak hand.... Target long since torn up into very very small pieces

 

[daved20319]

I like the Dot Torture drill, although "like" isn't really the right word . If I haven't done it for awhile, I start at 3 yards, then move out to 5 once I've warmed up. If I ever clean it at 5 , I'll move out to 7. I think the biggest problem with this drill is speed. Everyone seems to forget that this is a marksmanship drill, NOT a speed drill, any time limit is self-imposed. Keep reminding yourself to take all the time you need to make the best shots you can, when you can consistently clean the target at your selected range move the target out farther and repeat. There are other drills much more suited to working on speed, this one isn't it. Later.

Dave

 

[turbo_vanner]

I dont compete, but i do load, and sure hate missing things like potatoes or golf balls at 100 or so yards when 'theoretically' I should have the precision to do it...

Most likely though, my handloads are fine, and its just me, and I don't want to admit it.

 

[No_Regerts]

My standard depends on what I intend to use it for, but I need to be able to take a head shot of at least 15 yards for me to be confident carrying it. That's why no pocket guns for me. With a duty gun, I'd add at least 10 yards to that figure.

 

[Lesliet]

Op mentioned wanting to get faster, and that's mostly the kind of shooting I like best. A set of steel plates from 8" to 12" set out at 12-15 yards and a shot timer will keep me entertained until I run out of ammo. That being said, it is a good challenge to work on other stuff, too, to reinforce and learn fundamentals. So I change it up, sometimes shooting pistol from a rest, or slow, accurate fire at the extreme range of the bay. ( usually that's only about 25 yards, unless no one is using one of the few longer bays available. ) That dot test is pure evil... if you think you're really good, or just need to be humbled, it will point out your deficiencies without any hesitation.

As far as accuracy in pistols goes, it depends what it's for. My p320 x5 legion is not super accurate, as it trades tight accuracy for strong reliability and " combat accuracy", ie, it's great for hitting plates and "A" boxes, and running reloads that may not all have gone through a gauge, but not what you'd choose for 50 yard timed fire. My GSG 1911-22 is surprisingly accurate, with a 1 moa dot... I can usually place shots on clays on the berm ( ~ 25 yards) so that they hit the edge and shatter it more often than not, shooting freestyle. Been thinking about getting one of those S&W performance center revolvers with the ports and a trigger job, to see how accurate I can be at distance, and practice da trigger firing. ( probably been watching too many Jerry Miculek videos, but I'm not gonna admit that.)

 

[BATTERY]

I don't know who you handgun "snipers" are but I haven't seen any at my range.. ever. I can hit a 6 inch plate consistently at 22 yards if I slow down. Most of my shooting is around 18 yards at 8 inch plates. I shoot quite often but still kinda suck. Lol.

Recently I've been trying to get better with a red dot on my pistol. Found out I was down got all wrong. Oh well. It's fun anyway.

 

[a6m5]

When I found out that I couldn't shoot my Gen 4 Glock 19 accurately at all, I started practicing last year. I can probably go 6" at 15 yards, and that's on a good day. My goal is to be able to do that at 25 yards. Believe it or not, that would be a pretty big win for me. I haven't measured groups, but I was way more accurate with my Kimber Custom Target II. At least I used to be.

 

[HaveGun]

I don't know who you handgun "snipers" are but I haven't seen any at my range.. ever.

I don't go to public ranges...

Seriously, though, I thought I was good, really good. Then I joined GSSF and started competing monthly. The gold standard is to get a perfect 500 score. I think I got a bunch of 494s and 492s, but never the elusive 500. Always finished in the top 3 of the "A" class, but there are simply better shooters than me. Keeping all shots within an 8" circle shooting timed fire at 25 yards is very difficult. I can do it fine at my private range, by myself. Get in front of people and the pressure of competition, and I always threw one or two.

Then I changed schedules and work Saturdays when the matches are, so haven't shot in one in over a year.

But it was humbling to be in the company of some truly great shooters. One of the guys I shot with, using an Unlimited-class G19, can shoot his 50-shot string from 3 yards to 25 yards, timed fire, in a group the size of my fist. He's at least ten years older than me and the owner of RMR Bullets. Great guy and extremely proficient. I miss the time there.

I invited a guy from work who was a Glock fanboy to join. Guy has DOZENS of Glocks and every single gadget and accessory you could think of. He was constantly talking about how great of a shot he was. He showed up for one match, shot like crap, and never came back. Some people can't handle being mediocre and instead of striving to be better, take their ball and go home.

I think my first score was a 429. Disappointing. But I was using a 10mm Glock. I came back the next match and did a 480 with a .40 S&W conversion barrel. Then I got a G19, then a G35, and was in the 490's.

Someday I'll be back on a normal schedule and can get back into it and hopefully reach the 500 level.

I noticed that people that can't shoot accurately either strive to do better, or they insult those that can shoot accurately by claiming that anything beyond 7 yards is "illegal" or stupid, or not likely.

 

[Stomper]

No matter what you shoot, and how well you shoot it... you'd be amazed how much your groups will open up when someone is shooting back at you.

 

[HaveGun]

No matter what you shoot, and how well you shoot it... you'd be amazed how much your groups will open up when someone is shooting back at you.

But those groups will be substantially smaller if they are smaller in practice.

Who stands a better chance in an actual gunfight? A proficient match shooter or the average Joe who can't hit paper at 25 yards?

I have cleared leather in a couple of instances and experienced the tunnel vision and slowing down of time and my front sight was on the bad guy when it needed to be and where it needed to be and I am confident that had the shooting started, I would have been just fine. Thank God I never had to pull the trigger.

 

[Alexx1401]

I don't know who you handgun "snipers" are but I haven't seen any at my range.. ever. I can hit a 6 inch plate consistently at 22 yards if I slow down. Most of my shooting is around 18 yards at 8 inch plates. I shoot quite often but still kinda suck. Lol.

Recently I've been trying to get better with a red dot on my pistol. Found out I was down got all wrong. Oh well. It's fun anyway.

Over many decades of shooting I have personally shot with a handful of really good shooters. Who just almost made it look like some kind of magic. I have lost track of the shooters who "told me" how great they were until we got to shoot together. All of a sudden they could not shoot anything like they said they could. Now days my eye's don't do well with irons. In the damn indoor range it's really bad. The lanes tend to not allow enough light above me so I feel like I'm shooting in a damn cave
In any case the norm is watching other shooters, many far younger than me is they can't do much better either. Its why often when I pull out a PCC and slap a dot on it all of a sudden some others will come over to see. Because the can see the targets with large one hole groups and think I am shooting with a handgun. Think I am some kind of expert. Until they see I'm "cheating"
Point shooting is another skill few really have. I have burned a box car load of ammo trying it. I never did get very good at it. Now I have seen a few who again made it look like magic. Draw and fire and hit with out sights. I can not do it. At least not nearly well enough to want to rely on it if I need to hit something.

 

[coop44]

I really don't need to be a good shot anymore, as I am 64 with eyesight starting to go south. I am working on my acting skills trying to get bg's to come close enough to "the feeble old guy" to do a mag dump into their faces.