PPS-43c ----> SBR Question

shibbershabber · Aug 10, 2015

So I just bought one of these with a bunch of ammo and have fallen in love with this piece.

This is one of those commie guns that got imported as a pistol... has a 14" bbl and the top-folding stock is locked in place and is not functional.

There are parts kits out there and stock assemblies for even less $$$...

I am considering getting this thing and making an SBR, because its that awesome.

NOW, here is my question... how does this work now.

Is this a Form 1 thing? Ive also read that due to an issue in WA's language, "manufacturing" an SBR is a no-go and many up here have had their apps denied.

If all I am doing is unpinning an existing stock and not really changing anything on the gun, am I really "manufacturing" anything in the eyes of WA or ATF? There is no barrel cutting or gunsmithing required to get it into SBR configuration.

Other questions:

Im in Vancouver and like to shoot in a few spots in Oregon. Ive read that crossing state lines is not allowed. Whats the deal with that? Is it really that cut & dried? This is enough to kill it for me right there.

How do I sell it down the road?

Can I un-SBR it? (I know, but I have to ask)

thanks!

coyotecaller · Aug 10, 2015

This might not be an answer to your questions but I've heard these guns are a whole lot of fun and as a fan of the 7.62 Tok cartridge, I have to ask, How does it shoot and how is it's accuracy?

shibbershabber · Aug 11, 2015

No idea yet...

I suppose I should fire it before deciding on such drastic measures.

coyotecaller · Aug 11, 2015

shibbershabber said:
No idea yet...

I suppose I should fire it before deciding on such drastic measures.

I'd most certainly recommend that. I heard some have a somewhat sloppy magazine lock up which causes feeding/cycling issues. I'm sure by "some", it might only be a few flawed individual guns that were slapped together by a hung over factory worker on a monday morning.

wired · Aug 11, 2015

Yes. Unpinning the stock is manufacturing an SBR.

If you cross into Oregon you file a 5320.20 with the ATF for transport across state lines to the area you go shooting at. Doesnt cost anything but it is only good for one location and they will not approve the form if you just put "State of Oregon" .

Find a friend in Oregon who will make you a trustee on the trust he administers. Build it in Oregon then trasfer it to Washington on a 4473 through a Washington dealer and file a permanent change of location on a 5320.20.

Yes, You can un SBR it whenever you want.

Selling it is easy. To sell as an SBR the buyer fills out the form 4 , you sign it and send it in with $200 that he pays. When the form is approved he gets it.

SCARed · Aug 11, 2015

Corrections in red.

wired said:
Yes. Unpinning the stock is manufacturing an SBR.
Technically it is "MAKING" a SBR. Federally, there is a distinction.
If you cross into Oregon you file a 5320.20 with the ATF for transport across state lines to the area you go shooting at. Doesnt cost anything but it is only good for one location and they will not approve the form if you just put "State of Oregon" .
The -20 is for interstate travel, Put what ever location in OR you want on it and your free to travel anywhere in the state. For the dates, most will put in for 1 year, which is the max the ATF will allow. For the reason, put in "For all lawful purposes".

Find a friend in Oregon who will make you a trustee on the trust he administers. Build it in Oregon then trasfer it to Washington on a 4473 through a Washington dealer and file a permanent change of location on a 5320.20.
That's a completely convoluted way to do it and wrong. Yes, you can become a trustee on a OR trust, but the trust own the firearm, not you. You don't transfer it on a 4473, nor can you file a permanent change of location.
Become a trustee on the OR trust, the OR trust F1's the SBR, then the OR trust files a -20 for 1 year of interstate travel. You can then put your home address as the location in WA.

Yes, You can un SBR it whenever you want.

Selling it is easy. To sell as an SBR the buyer fills out the form 4 , you sign it and send it in with $200 that he pays. When the form is approved he gets it.
^^^This. OR you can take the stock off, turn it back into a pistol and sell it as a non-NFA item, just like any other pistol.

wired · Aug 11, 2015

The 4320.20 does not give you carte blanche to travel within the other state. I have been round and round with my examiner on this issue and I used to feel the same way because thats the way it has always been explained to me as well. The ATF's position is that it is good for one location and one location only and that is the location on the form itself. Ive filled out a pile of those things that have been rejected because I listed too broad of an area . One location only and thats all its good for besides travel between point A and point B. If you want another location you need another 5320.20. If you do a permanent change of location you will not need to do a 5320.20 every time you take it to the range ( OK Once a year for that location.) . Even as a trustee you are not excused from the 5320.20 requirements if traveling within a state other than the issued state.

This was the verbage attached to my last rejected 5320.20 ( shoot in Washington a lot ) ...

"If you want to possess your NFA items in other places, you will need to submit a new 5320.20 for EACH location you want to possess the item(s) at."

The convoluted way might be convoluted but as you are moving an NFA firearm into another state you will need the 5320.20. Y ou are probably right on the 4473 unless Washington requires it.

SCARed · Aug 11, 2015

wired said:
The 4320.20 does not give you carte blanche to travel within the other state. I have been round and round with my examiner on this issue and I used to feel the same way because thats the way it has always been explained to me as well. The ATF's position is that it is good for one location and one location only and that is the location on the form itself. Ive filled out a pile of those things that have been rejected because I listed too broad of an area . One location only and thats all its good for besides travel between point A and point B. If you want another location you need another 5320.20. If you do a permanent change of location you will not need to do a 5320.20 every time you take it to the range ( OK Once a year for that location.) .

If you are putting in something like "The Entire state of WA" then ya, that's not going to get approved. But for decades, it has been acceptable to travel anywhere within the state once approved to a location within that state. If you need to clarify, and clarify, and clarify, then by rocking the boat, you are contributing to the same problem that eliminated F1's being approved in WA state, and the recent ATF letter regarding the SIG braces.

The examiners aren't known for knowing the law even with NFA items. It used to be you could put down GPS coordinates, now they tell you you were never allowed.

Even as a trustee you are not excused from the 5320.20 requirements if traveling within a state other than the issued state.

Never said different.

This was the verbage attached to my last rejected 5320.20 ( shoot in Washington a lot ) ...

"If you want to possess your NFA items in other places, you will need to submit a new 5320.20 for EACH location you want to possess the item(s) at."

The convoluted way might be convoluted but as you are moving an NFA firearm into another state you will need the 5320.20. Y ou are probably right on the 4473 unless Washington requires it.

wired · Aug 11, 2015

I put gps coordinates for the last one I filed. Approved no problem.sure you can do whatever you want if you make your own rules but the atf is saying these days that blanket 5320.20s don't work like that any more. I have 6 open 5320.20s for different places I shoot at. They are not approving "state of Washington " forms like they did at one time any more and they absolutely do tell you you need a separate form for each local.

wired · Aug 11, 2015

Seems to me that the ATF is coaching their examiners in how to read their own handbook and are following the letter of the law or at least their rule book. What they did for decades doesnt matter any more. They are no longer approving "my dads house in longview and other locations in the state" . They ARE requiring separate 5320.20's for each location. Sure. You can do whatever you want until you get caught. Ive never been asked by anyone to see my form 1's or form 4's. . Ive never been asked by anyone to see my 5320.20's nor would they probably even bother after I showed them the form 1's and 4's. Does that mean its legal or that I care if its legal? No. It just means that someone somewhere MIGHT get in trouble sometime for not crossing T's and dotting I's.

Do a google search for...

"If you want to possess your NFA items in other places, you will need to submit a new 5320.20 for EACH location you want to possess the item(s) at."

You wont like it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=if+...ome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=119&ie=UTF-8

From the NFA handbook...

https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf

13.8.3 One-year approval. If a person will be transporting his/her firearm(s) to the same location on acontinual basis, ATF will approve a transportation request for up to 1 year. Example: the person lives inState A, has a farm in State B (State B allows possession of the particular firearm), and wants to take thefirearm to the farm throughout the year. The person may request permission for a 1-year period totransport the firearm interstate to the farm. Any other interstate transportation would still require aseparate request and approval. Second example: the person lives in State A and wants to transporthis/her firearm to a site in State B where competitions and shoots occur several times a year (State Ballows possession of the particular firearm). The person may request permission for a 1-year period totransport the firearm interstate to the site for competitions and shoots. Any other interstatetransportation would still require a separate request and approval.