potential problem with well respected local gunsmith

[Mygrainman]

Send

Well, here goes....


His Response:

Brian - Lots of words but nothing said. What is it that you want? Out of thousands of repairs and modifications unintended events occur. Unfortunately your rifle is one of them, cosmetic as it is. Please clearly express what you want and I'll attempt to work it out with you.

Regards.

Les Jonsson
-CCG



My Reply:

Les

Fair enough, Ill keep it short.

A simple cosmetic problem requires a cosmetic solution.

Properly repair the affected area and Duracoat it from tang to muzzle.

Thanks
Brian

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Ill leave it at that...

If he balks at that idea, I will take it to a reputable GS and get an estimate... then off to small claims we go.

What irks me the most is how flippantly he is acting about it, after admitting his own neglect!

Just a thought.. but even if he agreed to duracaot for free.. do you really want somebody working on your gun that a. flubbed it up once already, and b. will be doing it even though he obviously doesn't feel he should have to.
Like sending your food back to the kitchen when the cook has a bad attitude.. It would give me pause!

 

[Misteramax]

Well, unfortunately... Hes not interested in making it right.

Insinuating that it was no big deal and i am overreacting.


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His response:

Hi Brian - Don't confuse tool marks with damage. If the rifle were damaged it wouldn't work. Your rifle will. Attempting to make it disappear will result in worse pictures. As I suggested, if you decide to Duracoat the entire rifle then the marks will be removed.

Please let me know. I'm willing to reduce the standard Duracoat fee by 25% due to the marks. Thanks for your understanding.


My response to that:

Lets not get into semantics. What you consider damage may be rendering something inoperable, to me, in this case, it means adversely altering something from its original form. I understand that this firearm will still function for its intended purpose of sending projectiles towards a target.

What my concern is that these "tool marks" have altered the surface of an otherwise flawless receiver. These tool marks are noticeable to the naked eye and affect the aesthetics of the gun, and therefore negatively affecting the value of the gun both to me and to future resale value.

These "tool marks" were caused by an act of negligence on your part, which you have previously admitted.

So what this boils down to is that I brought you a rifle to have a barrel swapped, what I received was a rifle that had received superficial damages which affect the appearance and value of my firearm... something that one wouldn't normally consider to be acceptable when taking a firearm to a professional gunsmith.

If I had done this myself or taken it to my buddy's garage to do... that's one thing. To have this happen in the hands of a well respected, professional gunsmith is another.

Furthermore, you realized this mistake and made attempts to cover it, which you stated in an earlier email... but you did NOT inform me of this ahead of time though you were certainly aware of it during our conversations regarding the muzzle brake and form of payment.
It also appeared that you were not intending to tell me about this at pickup... since it only came up when you saw me run my finger across the affected area... even then not even as much as offering an apology.

Again, Ill remind you that this was due to your own negligence, which you admitted.

Say I'm painting your house... I normally cover up cars when spraying, but this one time I didn't and I over sprayed your car. Me, being a professional contractor, you would expect me to take necessary precautions to protect your property at all times, right? Suppose after spraying your car, I told you that its only superficial and that your car is still driveable... and I gave you a couple of free car wash coupons. How would you react?

So your trying to pass this off as tool marks... as if it is normal and nothing to worry about... is ridiculous. Then, only after my complaint, you offer me %25 off of a Duracoat job, which is already priced %25 higher than every other gunsmith in town???


This was my first time using a gunsmith... but I'm pretty sure this isn't how its supposed to go.

Is this really how you're going to leave it?

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So, at this point, Im not interested in protecting his identity, even if he makes it right later.... his responses I think speak for themselves.

It was Clark County Gunsmithing.

Is this who some of you suspected it was?

Woooow. F-him. Seriously, if you communicate anymore with him tell him this:

Learn how to properly hold your work, you backyard wannabe machinist.

 

[etrain16]

Just because some of us choose to work from home doesn't mean we do subpar work. For me it's the best scenario. I have a 36'x48' shop that houses all my machines and welders, presses etc etc. then attached to my home is a very nicely converted 2 1/2 car garage. I do most of my clean work in there.
I can step outside to test fire which is nice.
Rental on a shop in town would be quite expensive. When we were house hunting I specifically looked for a area that would be good for smithing work.

I covet your shop and the location - great places to work and what a place for you to be able to shoot on your property!

 

[nammac]

Well, here goes....


His Response:

Brian - Lots of words but nothing said. What is it that you want? Out of thousands of repairs and modifications unintended events occur. Unfortunately your rifle is one of them, cosmetic as it is. Please clearly express what you want and I'll attempt to work it out with you.

Regards.

Les Jonsson
-CCG



My Reply:

Les

Fair enough, Ill keep it short.

A simple cosmetic problem requires a cosmetic solution.

Properly repair the affected area and Duracoat it from tang to muzzle.

Thanks
Brian

************************************************************

Ill leave it at that...

If he balks at that idea, I will take it to a reputable GS and get an estimate... then off to small claims we go.

What irks me the most is how flippantly he is acting about it, after admitting his own neglect!

Regardless of the final outcome, it's the attitude that tells the real story... As others have said, he needs to put himself in your place, it's your merchandise that has been damaged... Cosmetic or not... It should be returned to you in the same condition it was received, with only the agreed upon modifications completed...

His lackadasical attitude should be fair warning to any future customers...

 

[Ura-Ki]

I'm in for a 20 spot, even better, let's all have a visit with the Smith of your choice and toss some meat on a bbq and drink some Root Beer!!! Make a weekend day out of it and put this stressful business behind. Good friends, and good bbq, what good be better then that????

 

[shibbershabber]

I'd be tempted for us to pass the hat around so that this gun could be made right again.. by a reputable gunsmith.. to show him that's how things are done in this community.

I appreciate the thought. However, pass the hat and contribute to the site.

I've been here for 9 years and there is nowhere else worth going on the internet.
I should have put the rifle in the hands of a supporting vendor... NWFA has never lead me astray.

Lessons learned, and not to put my money where my mouth is and contribute to the site again.

 

[NWCustomFirearms]

What really sucks is that I actually talked to Jon @NWCustomFirearms about this very project............

But ended up at CCG because it was closer to work, because I wanted to be lazy... now look at me.

If you can't come to a satisfactory resolution with CCGS then bring it to me and I will hook you up with some cerakote and give you a killer deal

 

[NWCustomFirearms]

Let's get something straight, that is not a "professional gunsmith" work. Jon @NWCustomFirearms and myself have pretty much the same view on almost everything. We chatted about this "blemish" and talked about how to fix it. Neither of us would have put it on the customer to pay for..no way never.. just not our way to do business.

A professional would never return a customers firearm with damage like that.
A professional would not offer a 25% discount to hide the damage done by him.

ditto

 

[Velzey]

It's been late when I've been posting the last few nights so I missed a little.

I'm curious about something, " Don't confuse tool marks with damage"
I don't have a receiver wrench that clamps in the area of the damage, or any other tool that holds that area. The area that gets clamped in the forward receiver ring.
He did admit that he forgot a stainless shim. You don't use stainless steel shims on barrels or receivers. We use brass, lead shim stock, leather sometimes, blue painters tape.. always something that won't marr the metal.

So that being said you could take your car into a repair shop, they could fix the motor problem. Then walk up and down your car with a ball peen hammer and make lots of little dents.
It's ok tho, cos it doesn't effect how the motor runs..


If you think this damage doesn't effect the rifle, head on down to your local shop to trade it in.
The shop will say ok what do we have here? Hmmm ok this rifle is worth $400 trade in! Oh wait, what's this damge here in the receiver?
Hmmmm well I didn't see this at first so we need to take this into account.
I'm only going to offer you $150 for it because of the damage.
Would you like your $150 in cash or store credit?

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Just because some of us choose to work from home doesn't mean we do subpar work. For me it's the best scenario. I have a 36'x48' shop that houses all my machines and welders, presses etc etc. then attached to my home is a very nicely converted 2 1/2 car garage. I do most of my clean work in there.
I can step outside to test fire which is nice.
Rental on a shop in town would be quite expensive. When we were house hunting I specifically looked for a area that would be good for smithing work.

Didn't mean to discount your operation, @Velzey. The guy who fitted the wood on my antique rifle had a similar situation. But taking the whole scenario into account; limited hours, no dedicated store front, and advertising that says "I'm afraid if I give you a recommendation over the phone you'll take it somewhere else to get the work done" gives me pause. Limited hours says "I have other things to do." No dedicated store front also makes me wonder how serious this individual is about his business. Getting a recommendation or advice for free and then taking the work somewhere else is underhanded in my book, and I find that when people don't trust their customers they generally aren't trustworthy either, and for the same reasons. People tend to fear that someone else will do to them what they do to others. No one item would be disqualifying, but taking everything together I would not give this individual anything valuable to work on.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Now that is another example of how to do it right. Sure you're out 4K short term. How many people did this family tell about the fantastic treatment they got? You can bet you gained not only them as return customers but others they told this story too for years. Where as OTOH this so called Smith is going to have a lot of people avoiding him like a disease now. When people like this go out of business they always have a string of excuses as to why. Of course they will never admit the real problem was them. There is nothing to be gained by shafting people or treating them badly just because you can.

That family became regular customers and at the end of every houseboat vacation they reserved for the next year and let their deposit ride. We got many referrals from them over the next few years.

 

[Misteramax]

It's been late when I've been posting the last few nights so I missed a little.

I'm curious about something, " Don't confuse tool marks with damage"
I don't have a receiver wrench that clamps in the area of the damage, or any other tool that holds that area. The area that gets clamped in the forward receiver ring.
He did admit that he forgot a stainless shim. You don't use stainless steel shims on barrels or receivers. We use brass, lead shim stock, leather sometimes, blue painters tape.. always something that won't marr the metal.

So that being said you could take your car into a repair shop, they could fix the motor problem. Then walk up and down your car with a ball peen hammer and make lots of little dents.
It's ok tho, cos it doesn't effect how the motor runs..


If you think this damage doesn't effect the rifle, head on down to your local shop to trade it in.
The shop will say ok what do we have here? Hmmm ok this rifle is worth $400 trade in! Oh wait, what's this damge here in the receiver?
Hmmmm well I didn't see this at first so we need to take this into account.
I'm only going to offer you $150 for it because of the damage.
Would you like your $150 in cash or store credit?

That was my thought. The fact he said stainless shim I was like WTF.........

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I'm curious about something, " Don't confuse tool marks with damage"
I don't have a receiver wrench that clamps in the area of the damage, or any other tool that holds that area. The area that gets clamped in the forward receiver ring.
He did admit that he forgot a stainless shim. You don't use stainless steel shims on barrels or receivers. We use brass, lead shim stock, leather sometimes, blue painters tape.. always something that won't marr the metal.

Tool marks ARE damage in my book. I always use brass (and blue tape) or leather to pad the vise or tools I'm using when I work on my own stuff. Why anyone would think that stainless shim stock would be adequate is puzzling. The damage looks to me like he put a bar into the opening instead of using a receiver wrench designed for the job. Given everything else that screams "fly-by-night" here, maybe he didn't have the correct tool, and that's why the damage occurred. If that is the case I would be suspicious that the receiver itself may be warped. I would have someone like Velzey or Jon check the receiver for more subtle damage. Maybe this guy simply needs to buy the rifle from you for retail so you can go get a new one. This is shade tree machinist stuff.

 

[joken]

I recently picked up a Savage bolt action rifle, an unfired 111 fcns in 30-06
I then bought a bull barrel for it from a member here. Everything is good so far.

After looking at the cost of the equipment... vise, wrench, gauges, etc. I decided that I would just have a gunsmith install it since it would be cheaper.


I have NEVER been to a gunsmith for work before, I have always done my own work.


Long story short after a couple weeks I get the call to pick it up.

Looks pretty nice.

I noticed a spot on the receiver, the 'smith said something about the vise. I though it was a scuff or something, adhesive mark, whatever... nothing else was said of it.

After getting home and wiping it down, I noticed that the spot did not clean up and was actually rough and damaged.

View attachment 376357
View attachment 376358

Of course the gun was not in this condition when dropped off, and it was even mentioned that the vise had done something to it when I picked it up.


Clearly this is a problem.

Again, this is a local gunsmith who has nothing but great reviews on here and elsewhere.

It seems odd that he would damage a gun like this and then only casually mention it when seeing me rub my finger over it.

Nothing, not even an apology. I even asked about Duracoat pricing (my bbl is in the white) and he quoted me $200 for a barreled receiver... not even offering a discount after damaging it.


Now, like I said, Ive never been to a gunsmith before, but this doesn't strike me as standard practice.

I haven't contacted him yet. I wanted to get your opinions...

Should I ask for a refund? Should I press for him to smooth out the damage and refinish it?
What does one do in this situation?

I don't think it would take much to make that be gone, particularly as part of a Cerakote job. Use Cerakote, not Duracoat.

 

[Chaffee]

I had a King's 2 piece guide rod, and a trigger installed in one of my 1911's, got the call, picked it up, bushing face was bent to bubblegum, looked like work was done with a hammer and chisel. I was told that I would have to take it up with the owner (who wasn't there at the time). My repeated calls were ignored, he was always "unavailable" when I went back to discuss the problem. I finally cornered him at a gun show, I started to show him the problem and he interrupted me and told me, "Don't bother me at the gun show, call me at the shop!"
I kept calling, and was always avoided. Finally had a competent gunsmith repair the damage. I never went back, and he never got another dime from me, that was 20 years ago.
When you treat people right, they remember. When you do them wrong, they never forget!

 

[3MTA3]

It's not just the cosmetics that concern me with this job. At the very least I'd have another gunsmith check the head spacing and as mentioned above the receiver for warpage. Sloppy work anywhere means sloppy work could be everywhere.

 

[3MTA3]

@shibbershabber @Chaffee make sure you give this guy a review here on Yelp: Clark County Gunsmithing - Vancouver, WA

Only one review and it looks like he wrote it himself. I'd add the pictures to your review.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Agreed! Tool marks from a factory Savage would be non existent any where, so any marks you find would be from this "bugger job" when I was a kid, my grand dad taught me to use lead with pine pitch in a set of vice jaw adapters and that has never failed me I'm pulling any barrel, and never once have I had this leave any marks on a barrel or reciever!!!
I also use or make the correct wrench or tool to pull or hold something, and I use bronze when ever possible! My point is, this slim shady should have the correct tools for his job, or not take the job and bugger up some ones precious gun!

 

[Certaindeaf]

I think I have about one story about a gunsmith.
My armorer was a good friend of mine and though about 25 years my senior, was just starting out to become a gunsmith.
Anyway, I got a 3" Model 13 and wanted it all "FBI'd" (hammer bobbed, deseared and slicked up. The thing though, I could unscrew the barrel by hand on this brand new gun before he even laid hands on it.. long story short, he did a great job but left/put a huge gouge on the barrel.
He was mortified and offered to buy me a new gun or whatever I wanted. I laughed and said "no prob, I'm never selling this thing so it doesn't matter".
Love ya, Tommy.

 

[shibbershabber]

I just got a call from them, (secretary manybe) she said that he had stepped out for the day but would reply to me this evening.

W. T. F.

Hes either going to do it or he isnt.