National Possible to force newly manufactured ballistics through NIBIN?

[Hueco]

In discussing solutions for the nebulous "gun control" with some peers, I brought up the following scenario (using my DW as an example):
- DW produces my 9mm Guardian
- DW recovers a test shot and submits the ballistics to NIBIN
- DW maintains a record of the ballistics record number + gun serial number pair
- NIBIN maintains a record of the ballistics record number and photos and Manufacturer
- Oregon Rifleworks puts an order in for a customer requested DW Guardian in 9mm
- DW ships said handgun to Oregon Rifleworks and keeps a record of the gun serial number + sold to pair
- Oregon Rifleworks sells DW Guardian to me and keeps track of the gun serial number + sold to pair

Now, I found an internal Audit that the ATF did on their own processes that specifically called out that they *could not* force newly manufactured guns to use the NIBIN system due to the FOPA. In looking at the FOPA, I see an obvious requirement that the Fed never maintain a list of firearm owners...I don't see how the above process would violate FOPA.

A pro of the above would be Law Enforcements immediate ability to be on the lookout for offending ballistics of stolen firearms and/or track crime scene ballistics back through the owner-chain. In this scenario, a LEO would provide crime scene ballistics to NIBIN, get a match to a manufacturer, submit a request to the manufacturer to get the first sold-to record, and on and on until able to find the last owner of the firearm.

I'm curious to get other gun owners' thoughts on this. I don't want this to expand into a massive gun-control debate...rather, would like to see this one idea either supported from another perspective or torn down with some sort of rationale given. Bonus points for pointing out where this would violate FOPA (as I haven't found it yet).

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[JustSomeGuy]

Instead of being a single point registry where you could just plug in a serial number and (presto) get the name of the owner, you're proposing a tiered registry where you have to follow the trail of ownership. It doesn't matter if it's one step or 100, it's a registry.

 

[41mag]

Several NE states abandoned similar registry project after a decade and $Bns wasted in nonproductive & flawed theory.

 

[Hueco]

Instead of being a single point registry where you could just plug in a serial number and (presto) get the name of the owner, you're proposing a tiered registry where you have to follow the trail of ownership. It doesn't matter if it's one step or 100, it's a registry.

Possibly. Conceptually, I get what you're saying. But, at no point in the process does the Fed ever get a firearm serial number + owner combo.

At the end of the process, LEO *would* have a serial number + owner combo. However, this is no different than what they would have if a firearm were found at the scene of a crime and they began digging into that weapon's past from manufacturer through to final owner. The new process adds the avenue of only needing ballistics at the scene of a crime, instead of the whole firearm. It's a new starting point, but not a new end and the same old story in between.

I suppose the simple solution to the above (and this may already exist) would be to force LEO to keep those firearm+owner pairs as part of an individual case and not in any other sort of database.

With so many steps in the process and roadblocks, I don't think this qualifies for the term "registry".

 

[Hueco]

Several NE states abandoned similar registry project after a decade and $Bns wasted in nonproductive & flawed theory.

Can you point me towards one or two states / bills / acts / political BS at a rally that I can research?

 

[41mag]

I believe the most recent was New Hampshire, who terminated their program after about a decade. It would have been a few years ago. It was published in at least the NRA magazines. It was associated with the program that saw to it that every hand gun you purchased new, where ever you were in USA, that you received a special little paper envelope with a fired casing in it, as part of the stuff included in the pistol case.

A similar case with 'ballistic fingerprints' was supplied by the manufacturer to the LEO with serial #. As the FFL involved in end-sale was responsible for listing such ID items in their 4473 log, that was part of the trail of ownership.

I'll try to find other information & post here if I get any extra time.

 

[Hueco]

I believe the most recent was New Hampshire, who terminated their program after about a decade. It would have been a few years ago. It was published in at least the NRA magazines. It was associated with the program that saw to it that every hand gun you purchased new, where ever you were in USA, that you received a special little paper envelope with a fired casing in it, as part of the stuff included in the pistol case.

A similar case with 'ballistic fingerprints' was supplied by the manufacturer to the LEO with serial #. As the FFL involved in end-sale was responsible for listing such ID items in their 4473 log, that was part of the trail of ownership.

I'll try to find other information & post here if I get any extra time.

I appreciate even that much. These things pre-date me and it pays to study up.

 

[41mag]

Most probable most accessible source would likely be NRA member services. The article can't be more than a few years old.

In this program, one of the BIG complaints by whichever State Police was involved, was massive and ever expanding amounts of space the little envelopes with the casing occupied, as well as a coherent index to be able to access associated data, such as purchaser details.

IIRC the once-lauded State program spend around $10B over a decade, with absolutely ZERO hits that helped solve any gun crime.

Once you start digging I'm sure you'll come up with other similar links. Good luck.

 

[Diamondback]

By the way, NIBIN is easily defeated by just a simple barrel swap. Suck on that one...

 

[Stomper]

By the way, NIBIN is easily defeated by just a simple barrel swap. Suck on that one...

Was just about to say the same thing, or even take a file and add a couple "grooves" to change the "signature".

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

Was just about to say the same thing, or even take a file and add a couple "grooves" to change the "signature".

buy 80% lowers and parts and reloading supplies with cash at gun shows. wear gloves when reloading.

 

[scrandall01215]

Just curious as to why you would want LOE, or any gov. agency to have any ballistics and records of any of your firearms? Makes no sense to me

Stacy

 

[Stomper]

buy 80% lowers and parts and reloading supplies with cash at gun shows. wear gloves when reloading.

Wore nitrile gloves and wiped every round down thoroughly before I loaded every magazine that I carried at the 2A rally in Salem that we attended.... smart, huh?

 

[Hueco]

Just curious as to why you would want LOE, or any gov. agency to have any ballistics and records of any of your firearms? Makes no sense to me

Stacy

I actually don't. But, I'm of the opinion that, if one doesn't put themselves in other's shoes and play out something all of the way through, then not only will you not understand that other side but your own arguments may not be as sharp as they could be as well.

While I personally would not like the Fed to have *anything* to do with firearms (other than respecting 2A) [More of a state's rights kind of guy], I don't actually see where, legally, the process in OP is barred.

 

[zenbreath]

Dancing to the What If song.....

If you upgrade to a Bar-Sto barrel and trade you OEM barrel at a gun show....and the barrel is used by a criminal....will they come after you?

 

[The Heretic]

OTOH, how many cases have been solved by the gov having these kinds of records on either cases, projectiles, microstamping (Calif.) or powder with embedded micro whatever?

BTW - I have a number of SIGs with both 9mm and .40 slides/barrels/etc. - some of those barrels came from third parties used from their guns. Oregon may know I have these guns, but they don't know about the extra barrels.

What about shotguns? What about wear? What about sabots?

As pointed out, accessory barrels are very popular now and not expensive - especially for Glocks.

FWIW - the ATF already has a trace program, but I don't know of any use of it where they solved a crime with any records via their system with projectiles or casings. Of course, I never checked.

A few of my handguns have come with casings for those states that require such things, but I haven't seen one in years. Plus most states still allow private transfers without a BGC - so a LOT of firearms in private possession have probably tone thru at least one previous owner before winding up with their current owner. I personally don't keep records of who I have sold a firearm to.

 

[awshoot]

I wonder just how unique such bullet markings actually are, and how much of this is the inertia of commonly pushed opinions/psuedoscience. Couple that with the problems we've seen in crime labs, and I have no doubt that plenty of experts have fit the evidence to support whatever gut feeling they may have, rather than merely follow the evidence. So instead of doing something really useful, I could see such a database ending up with random people getting the SWAT treatment just because some lab rat is overconfident that the bullet used in a crime belongs to an innocent person's gun.

EDIT: indeed, aside from caliber and gun make, much of this type of analysis is probably overblown: Forensic firearm examination - Wikipedia

...Further criticism came from the 2009 NAS report on the current state of various forensic fields in the United States. The report's section on firearm examination focused on the lack of defined requirements that are necessary in order to determine "matches" between known and unknown striations. ...

 

[awshoot]

Here's a test. Get 500 glocks/smiths/whatever -- 500 of pistols of the identical make and model. Fire one FMJ from each pistol into water. Collect and number the bullets keeping track of which gun each bullet came from. Then randomly select five of the guns out of the 500 gun pool, and shoot one bullet out of each of those in the same manner as before, keeping track of which gun they came from. Mark those bullets with letters.

Provide the 505 bullets to crime labs and request they match the lettered bullets to the numbered bullets. If the science is good, every lab should correctly match every lettered bullet to the corresponding numbered bullet the gun also fired.

For an even better test, use 501 guns, but the last gun does NOT have a numbered bullet to which it corresponds. Provide six lettered bullets to the lab, and ask them to return results showing whether the bullets match any in the 500 pool without telling them how many should match.

If the science is good, it should be no problem aside from time to come back with the correct answers.

 

[41mag]

If you upgrade to a Bar-Sto barrel and trade you OEM barrel at a gun show....and the barrel is used by a criminal....will they come after you?

I'm unsure who the might come after. I read with some fascination sometime around year 2000 or so when this program in ?NH?? was instituted. The argument seemed convincing in the microphotographs of such as primer/firingpin and various other unique blebs, that you could positively match "one" given casing to "one other" fired from the same gun.

It was never clear in what I read, of how to locate in a given mass of hundreds of thousands of fired cases in their own little paper envelope, stored away for 20 years, could be accessed & compared not only to YOUR 'special ID casing' whether present or not. Nor was there anything I read that described a procedure where fired cases could be produced for microscopic exam with the one the LEOs had on file.

Perhaps some kind of machine accessible indexing, similar to how fingerprints are processed, could be used. I never read whether any such indexing ID process was developed, only that the fired casing was being stored for future evidence.
The few follow-up articles I saw on the matter, always raised more questions than they answered.

 

[thorborg]

While I personally would not like the Fed to have *anything* to do with firearms (other than respecting 2A) [More of a state's rights kind of guy],

"States rights kind of guy"?? left to that, Oregonians won't be able to protect themselves at all especially with Ms. Brown and her ilk.
I've been subjected to that states rights argument before in attempts to hood wink me into distraction from the real issue.
(possibly present company excepted)
NO!
Privacy and gun rights laws are not a "State rights Issue" they are Federal, a united states constitutional "guarantee" issue for its citizens, and must be supported, upheld, and forced on the individual states if necessary, or those in federal office are more than remiss in their duties and oath to protect them.
Until a state succeeds from the union, they must comply, and the federal regime must enforce the constitution that the individual states agreed to abide by when they asked for , and entered the embrace of the union.

At least that's the way I feel, but there sure seems to be no end of folk (many paid directly by us) working overtime to create a plethora of backdoor scams to subvert our laws and fool its citizens.
Spin it any way you want, rearrange and change the meaning of words, it is still a dishonest con, and it still stinks.