Portland woman thrown in jail for refusing grand jury inquisition

[JGRuby]

Dmancornell - have you ever set on or taken part in the grand jury process. A few years back I set on the Grand Jury for a month here in down town Portland. We heard 122 cases in that month - we threw several cases out and allowed most to go through. All the grand jury does is to see if there is a valid reason for prosecution from the juries perspective. During that month when I watched TV I often thought to myself I wonder if I would see that case and in some we did. We saw the worst of humanity, murder, child molestation and rape - amongst others. In short though it gave me a new perspective through seeing the real problems with society I felt not to set on that grand jury was shirking my responsibility. I am sure that it is not surprising to you but if given that chance I would do it again even though I would do it with much more trepadation this time as I heard a few things that really disturbed me. I support our grand jury system and I have been a part of it in the past.

James Ruby

 

[dmancornell]

Dmancornell - have you ever set on or taken part in the grand jury process. A few years back I set on the Grand Jury for a month here in down town Portland. We heard 122 cases in that month - we threw several cases out and allowed most to go through. All the grand jury does is to see if there is a valid reason for prosecution from the juries perspective. During that month when I watched TV I often thought to myself I wonder if I would see that case and in some we did. We saw the worst of humanity, murder, child molestation and rape - amongst others. In short though it gave me a new perspective through seeing the real problems with society I felt not to set on that grand jury was shirking my responsibility. I am sure that it is not surprising to you but if given that chance I would do it again even though I would do it with much more trepadation this time as I heard a few things that really disturbed me. I support our grand jury system and I have been a part of it in the past.

James Ruby

Sorry, your sob story about the evils of man doesn't justify how the state should be allowed imprison people because the police failed at evidence gathering.

To answer your question, no I have not had the misfortune, but if summoned I will be sure to sabotage all attempts to indict people for the various non-crimes the state goes after these days.

 

[JGRuby]

You ignorance is completely overwhelming - I have no idea why I even try to be civil. And to think you want us to beleve that it is moral authority.

James Ruby

 

[dmancornell]

You ignorance is completely overwhelming - I have no idea why I even try to be civil. And to think you want us to beleve that it is moral authority.

James Ruby

Says the fatalist who refuses to even consider the moral basis behind the bureaucratic law and openly advocates blind obedience.

 

[JGRuby]

I bet you were never in the military either. Its funny how those who want so much for thier selves are less than willing to help others except in thier own desire to do what they want without reprecussions for thier own actions. The individual who considers anything anti authoritarian to be patriotic or of a moral higher ground. I simply dont buy it as to me you are whats wrong with America not the solution you pretend to be.

 

[dmancornell]

I bet you were never in the military either. Its funny how those who want so much for thier selves are less than willing to help others except in thier own desire to do what they want without reprecussions for thier own actions. The individual who considers anything anti authoritarian to be patriotic or of a moral higher ground. I simply dont buy it as to me you are whats wrong with America not the solution you pretend to be.

Implying the military doesn't cause massive harm all over the world just so American politicians can have material for their memoirs. Also considering how you demand me and younger working folk pay for your retirement, it's rather ironic that you toss around phrases like "do what they want without repercussions".

In any case, authoritarians are responsible for all the problems in the world today, any thinking person can see that is self-evident. I've probably paid more taxes in 10 years than you have your entire life and got nothing in return but endless wars and government malfeasance, so I'm not exactly getting what "I want so much for myself", as you put it.

 

[JGRuby]

I really dont want you to pay for something that I have already paid for myself - I simply want what I paid in returnd to me - I know good luck. I fae teh very real possibility that in fifty years plus of deposits I may not see a red cent but I kind of have counted on that though I am not happy about it. It does not make me happy.

I support my country not because it is always right but because it is the best thing going in my mind. To me supporting my country means trying to live within its rules and laws and to change or try to change those laws I dont agree with. To remove those laws and create new laws where they are needed not because I said so but because the populace / society says so. In the past the desire to support something that I beleive in has required me to do things I really dont want to talk about. We should never lose track of the good things by only looking at the bad. It is my opinion but I feel that there should always be something greater than yourself that you support so strongly that you are willing to give your all - my family comes first then my country. Authorty to me means a direction not blind obedience - an attempt to have people work and live in a fashion that we can try to get along. 300 million people attempting to get along.

James Ruby

 

[AlphaCoyote]

I don't give a rip about whether this woman was or wasn't part of a distasteful group. Doesn't matter. What matters is that she was subpoenaed to testify, and she refused on the sole basis that she thought the proceeding was politically motivated.

Sorry, babe, but that's not your call and doesn't exempt you from your responsibility.

If you get a subpoena, you are legally required to provide testimony, unless you have an exemption (e.g., the right not to incriminate yourself). "I don't want to" or "This is a political witch hunt" is never going to cut it. You can always choose to be imprisoned for contempt if you feel strongly enough in your principles. This woman did. Off to jail you go for shirking her responsibilities as an American citizen.

This responsibility of the citizenry to provide information about possible crimes to the grand jury isn't new. Our founders set up this system, fashioned on even older legal systems. Sorry you don't like what our founders came up with, but if you don't like it, get it changed. These statements from people here that they would "sabotage" their own American system of government is really disappointing.

Citizenship implies not just rights, but responsibilities. Some people here seem to love their rights as citizens and feel as though they should get to pick and choose their responsibilities as citizens. That's what this woman did. Now she must pay.

 

[dmancornell]

Citizenship implies not just rights, but responsibilities. Some people here seem to love their rights and disclaim their responsibilities. That's what this woman did.

It would be irresponsible just to give any kind of credibility to this government tribunal. Contempt is the only proper response.

The responsibilities of a citizen don't include doing the job of the police after the crime because they were too incompetent to do it themselves when the crime occurred.

 

[JGRuby]

In any case, authoritarians are responsible for all the problems in the world today, any thinking person can see that is self-evident. I've probably paid more taxes in 10 years than you have your entire life and got nothing in return but endless wars and government malfeasance, so I'm not exactly getting what "I want so much for myself", as you put it.

So one thing at a time -

"most authoritarians are the problems" in the US most are voted into office - you do vote dont you? if not then you are part of the problem. Most authoritarians in the US have limited terms so the authoritarian today will and can be different in the future. I would argue more anarchists are the porblem and that is they have absolutely no repsect for the law or any authority. If we had more people obeying laws instead of breaking them by intent we would have less need for courts and laws in this country.

I really doubt this statement "I've probably paid more taxes in 10 years than you have your entire life" hence you have no proof one way or another - it has exactly that much bearing on reality.

"endless wars and government malfeasance" I am no fan of war - it seems that many who have been in the military are the ones who dont want to go to war. Again you vote right - you are one out of so many that say who you want as a president. If you cant at least spend the time to vote then how much credence should we give you when you complain about the leadership. I am not happy about either candidate but I will vote because it is my duty and repsonsibility. If it is nothing else, it is a right the constitution provides me.

What are your duties and responsibilities when it comes to supporting this country.

James Ruby

 

[AlphaCoyote]

It would be irresponsible just to give any kind of credibility to this government tribunal. Contempt is the only proper response.

The responsibilities of a citizen don't include doing the job of the police after the crime because they were too incompetent to do it themselves when the crime occurred.

It must be pretty sweet to be able to choose which responsibilities of citizenship you will comply with. Would you give everyone that choice? Or are you uniquely qualified to judge which responsibilities are valid and which are not?

You know, I might decide tomorrow not to fulfill my responsibility to show up for work in exchange for my pay. They should just send me my paycheck. Should an employee be entitled to make that judgment, as you and this woman have with respect to the responsibility to provide grand jury testimony? What if you are my employer, and I come to work to "sabotage" your operation as you advocate here for grand juries? Justified?

P.S. I'd be careful announcing on the internet your intent to sabotage the American legal system.

 

[dmancornell]

"most authoritarians are the problems" in the US most are voted into office - you do vote dont you? if not then you are part of the problem. Most authoritarians in the US have limited terms so the authoritarian today will and can be different in the future. I would argue more anarchists are the porblem and that is they have absolutely no repsect for the law or any authority. If we had more people obeying laws instead of breaking them by intent we would have less need for courts and laws in this country.

Right, because the massive bureaucracies that constitute the regime today are subject to voters' whims. On top of that we have the rotating door two-party system which guarantees lifelong authoritarian politicians at the helm at all times. And you actually think voting changes anything. It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

For the record, I vote libertarian, because that's the only conscionable thing to do.

I really doubt this statement "I've probably paid more taxes in 10 years than you have your entire life" hence you have no proof one way or another - it has exactly that much bearing on reality.

You're right, that's just a hunch based on your statements regarding you needing social security money. The fact is I've been robbed over $150k in federal taxes alone in the last 10 years, so your statement saying "I want what I want regardless of how it harms others" is BS. I pay and receive nothing. Others take.

"endless wars and government malfeasance" I am no fan of war - it seems that many who have been in the military are the ones who dont want to go to war. Again you vote right - you are one out of so many that say who you want as a president. If you cant at least spend the time to vote then how much credence should we give you when you complain about the leadership. I am not happy about either candidate but I will vote because it is my duty and repsonsibility. If it is nothing else, it is a right the constitution provides me.

See above. Voting makes no difference. Both parties will start wars to appease the military-industrial complex.

What are your duties and responsibilities when it comes to supporting this country.

Hah. I love this country. That's why I despise the regime that is ruining it, along with all the shills that go along with the ruling class.

 

[dmancornell]

It must be pretty sweet to be able to choose which responsibilities of citizenship you will comply with. Would you give everyone that choice? Or are you uniquely qualified to judge which responsibilities are valid and which are not?

You know, I might decide tomorrow not to fulfill my responsibility to show up for work in exchange for my pay. They should just send me my paycheck. Should an employee be entitled to make that judgment, as you and this woman have with respect to the responsibility to provide grand jury testimony? What if you are my employer, and I come to work to "sabotage" your operation as you advocate here for grand juries? Justified?

There's a huge difference between a voluntary contract (i.e. a job) and involuntary coercion via threat of violence (the government tribunal).

Moreover, I am employed to do a job, if I sabotage my work, I rightfully should be fired. On the other hand, my tax money feeds the monster that pursues unjust persecutions, therefore I should be the one firing the malfeasants. Unfortunately, there are apparently enough people here who think people should be imprisoned for no reason whatever other than thoughtcrime, so as always there really isn't anything I can do to fix the problem.

P.S. I'd be careful announcing on the internet your intent to sabotage the American legal system.

The state sees grand juries are nothing than rubber stamp committees to boost the ego of prosecutors, I fully intend to fulfill the traditional role of the jury to filter out malicious prosecutions, from *all* sides. You can quote me on that.

 

[AlphaCoyote]

There's a huge difference between a voluntary contract (i.e. a job) and involuntary coercion via threat of violence (the government tribunal).

So you do reserve for yourself the right to ignore citizenship responsibilities when you don't want to perform them? Does everyone have that right, or just you?

If you get choose which responsibilities as a citizen apply to you, do you offer up some of your rights in exchange? Or is this "Gimme my rights; I'll decide my responsibilities"? That would make you sound like a modern petulant 14 year old demanding his allowance and deciding he shouldn't have to take out the garbage.

P.S. If you don't like the social contract underlying American government and society, Cuba is only 90 miles from Miami.

 

[dmancornell]

So you do reserve for yourself the right to ignore citizenship responsibilities when you don't want to perform them? Does everyone have that right, or just you?

If you get choose which responsibilities as a citizen apply to you, do you offer up some of your rights in exchange? Or is this "Gimme my rights; I'll decide my responsibilities"? That would make you sound like a modern petulant 14 year old demanding his allowance and deciding he shouldn't have to take out the garbage.

P.S. If you don't like the social contract underlying American government and society, Cuba is only 90 miles from Miami.

LOL, allowance? Last time I checked, I pay, they take. Not the other way around. And I was wondering when the social contract canard was going to come up. Guess what, I didn't sign a damn thing. It's nothing more than an excuse for authoritarians to get off on telling other people what to do.

Involuntary taxation funds the regime, the least it can do is leave people alone. As far as I'm concerned, I have no responsibility other than not to do harm onto others.

 

[AlphaCoyote]

My kids used to have the "I shouldn't have any responsibilities" attitude too when they were adolescents, but they outgrew that and came to understand that rights and benefits go hand in hand with responsibilities. They also used to say they got nothing from their parents. Then when they matured they remembered one or two things.

You can renounce your citizenship, move away, and never have to worry about any of this again. No more US taxes, no more US responsibilities. Of course, no American rights or benefits of living in America, but you don't acknowledge any of that anyway. Win win for everyone.

If you hate the American system of rights and responsibilities, where would you rather be? And why not leave and go there? I'm sure there are lots of places where you can live well, exercise your rights and not have any responsibilities in return.

 

[BDA.45]

I don't give a rip about whether this woman was or wasn't part of a distasteful group. Doesn't matter. What matters is that she was subpoenaed to testify, and she refused on the sole basis that she thought the proceeding was politically motivated.

Sorry, babe, but that's not your call and doesn't exempt you from your responsibility.

If you get a subpoena, you are legally required to provide testimony, unless you have an exemption (e.g., the right not to incriminate yourself). "I don't want to" or "This is a political witch hunt" is never going to cut it. You can always choose to be imprisoned for contempt if you feel strongly enough in your principles. This woman did. Off to jail you go for shirking her responsibilities as an American citizen.

This responsibility of the citizenry to provide information about possible crimes to the grand jury isn't new. Our founders set up this system, fashioned on even older legal systems. Sorry you don't like what our founders came up with, but if you don't like it, get it changed. These statements from people here that they would "sabotage" their own American system of government is really disappointing.

Citizenship implies not just rights, but responsibilities. Some people here seem to love their rights as citizens and feel as though they should get to pick and choose their responsibilities as citizens. That's what this woman did. Now she must pay.

It is politically motivated, by the government. Their forcing her to testify. I agree with her. (legally only) She was subpoenaed but has no 5th amendment rights because the prosecutor granted her immunity which in turn forces her to testify or go to jail.

Grants of immunity

If the government gives an individual immunity, then that individual may be compelled to testify. Immunity may be "transactional immunity" or "use immunity"; in the former, the witness is immune from prosecution for offenses related to the testimony; in the latter, the witness may be prosecuted, but his testimony may not be used against him. In Kastigar v. United States, 406 U.S. 441 (1972), the Supreme Court held that the government need only grant use immunity to compel testimony. The use immunity, however, must extend not only to the testimony made by the witness, but also to all evidence derived therefrom. This scenario most commonly arises in cases related to organized crime.

 

[JGRuby]

Right, because the massive bureaucracies that constitute the regime today are subject to voters' whims. On top of that we have the rotating door two-party system which guarantees lifelong authoritarian politicians at the helm at all times. And you actually think voting changes anything. It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

For the record, I vote libertarian, because that's the only conscionable thing to do.



You're right, that's just a hunch based on your statements regarding you needing social security money. The fact is I've been robbed over $150k in federal taxes alone in the last 10 years, so your statement saying "I want what I want regardless of how it harms others" is BS. I pay and receive nothing. Others take.



See above. Voting makes no difference. Both parties will start wars to appease the military-industrial complex.



Hah. I love this country. That's why I despise the regime that is ruining it, along with all the shills that go along with the ruling class.

Never knew you could do anything you want like dman does - must be the united states of Dmancornell as he is above what other citizens consider thier responsibilities and duties. All hail dmancornell - yeah right.

James Ruby

 

[dmancornell]

My kids used to have the "I shouldn't have any responsibilities" attitude too when they were adolescents, but they outgrew that and came to understand that rights and benefits go hand in hand with responsibilities. They also used to say they got nothing from their parents. Then when they matured they remembered one or two things.

You can renounce your citizenship, move away, and never have to worry about any of this again. No more US taxes, no more US responsibilities. Of course, no American rights or benefits of living in America, but you don't acknowledge any of that anyway. Win win for everyone.

If you hate the American system of rights and responsibilities, where would you rather be? And why not leave and go there? I'm sure there are lots of places where you can live well, exercise your rights and not have any responsibilities in return.

Oh yes, it's by the gracious hand of the US government that my employer is forced to pay the world's highest corporate tax rate, have its profits double-taxed on every reinvestment and be forbidden to sell computers to random countries deemed hostile to the DC regime. All that while the economic overlords whine about how we dare to hire qualified foreigners instead of unqualified domestic workers in order to maintain a technological lead on semiconductor manufacturing, one of the few manufacturing sectors left in this country that hasn't been completely ruined by government regulation.

In any case, if my responsibilities involve doing harm to another citizen simply because the regime told me to, my response would be a big FU. Don't call other people children just because you lack the morals to do what's right, and the intelligence to question orders.

 

[netcarrier]

Hi All,

The Lady was Subpoenaed, Thats mean she have to answer the questions. If she does not then what happen is the Official will tell her that she must answer or be in contempt. This will be done three times, If she still refuses. She would be taken to jail for contempt of court. Would you like to know what is going to happen next. The Official can get another Subpoena serve her as she is get out of jail. She will go back to the Grand Jury and they will ask the same question again. If she still will not answer the Question she will be in contempt again, and go back to jail. What do you think of that? This is how the Grand Jury gets the true out of the person. Pretty Smart Hey! Just a note But you can get life in Jail by Contempt of Court. This is Law from back in the early days.
Just my two cents,
Tony Portland, Oregon area