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Politics of tillamook forest cleanup

Discussion in 'Firearm Legislation & Activism' started by thorborg, Apr 5, 2016.

  1. thorborg

    thorborg portland oregon Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I was concerned with a few points made by the government representative in his forest fire talk at the last Tillamook forest cleanup. (April 2nd 2016) (A grand event)

    I separated this from the original thread so as to not detract from the otherwise job well done by all including the object of my discontent.

    If indeed genuine, I appreciate his desire to advocate for, and cooperate with, the shooting public. I want to believe this man to be earnest in his endeavor to assist both the shooters and the forest. Let me be clear, for now, in no way am I criticizing the man, only the semantics of his content. Nonetheless, not only was I unimpressed, but left wanting, by his apparent lack of knowledge and seeming willingness to promote stereotypes, myths and falsehoods.

    Specifically; (for those not present) the terms he espoused out of context were “exploding targets” “spark”,” Tracer Bullets”

    In his endeavor to relate the seriousness of many fires last summer, along with his admirable concern and struggling effort to apply reasoning as to how to prevent future forest fires, he bantered about multiple times, each of these terms, covertly eluding to their complicity towards several of the fires he had related to us. None of them actually caused any of the fires.

    Why my beef you say? Caviler use of the wrong terms is what motivated me to step up on the soap box.

    Taken out of context whether through innocent ignorance or malice aforethought, these vernaculars; (including, not limited to) exploding targets, spark, tracers, (in my opine) can, and eventually will, cause untold impingement to our sporting freedoms related to firearms.

    May I point out the noise suppressor, AKA silencer if you please, and the inordinate amount of unreasonable regulation and taxes applied to such a simple and helpful devise. While not totally due to misuse of the vernacular, it did play an integral part, then, continuously overdramatized by various medias.

    Automatic, AKA machine gun: Heavily regulated, and taxed.

    Unfortunate regulation is self explanatory mechanically, But, because of the root word has been erroneously connected to auto loading or self loading firearms AKA semiautomatic, it is now stuck in people’s heads they are some form of machine gun and are ripe for being regulated and are heavily scrutinized in many places as the # 1 bad thing Du Jour. Starting with the magazine volume.

    Exploding targets: Tannerite brand does not start fires ( I am told and have read) but are not allowed many places because of association with other forms along with repeated suggestion and or implication by media including this government representative that they cause fires.

    Sparks: our citizens already are starting to show willingness to believe all ammo will spark including lead, and copper. Seeds have been planted. Again, the government representative not only eluded to but used the word “Spark” interchangeably with superheated fragments which were (in all likelihood) the third leg of the fire triangle that caused some (if not all) of the fires he related to.


    Tracers: New products do not rely on pyrotechnics to emulate old world tracers but may eventually be included and ultimately banned along with their flammable cousins.

    My point is espousing incorrect information especially from a platform of authority may cause irreparable damage in all sorts of insidious ways to many demographics.

    It behooves us to draw upon our intestinal fortitude to, at the moment, enlighten public speakers and their audience that which we know to be false (diplomatically as possible) should you believe as I did, the information may ultimately cause harm.

    It was at that moment, as I was engulfed in the incorrectness of his statements, no longer listening to his ramblings, I pondered extending his orations, likely much to the chagrin of those wanting to get on with the door prize drawing, when a young man spoke up and attempted to defend the wrongly accused projectiles and offered up not only clarity on fragmentation but insight of steel core villains along and then, as if icing on the cake, expressed willingness to provide hands on experience and further education to the government representative. I did not get this fine person’s name but I was proud to see the younger generation standing up for their rights and not yielding to the overwhelming mountain of misinformation.

    I hope this person is not an anomaly and accepted and emulated by his peers as my worries for our future would then be lessened.

    Thank you kindly for enduring the long wind.
     
    Mikej, Slobray, albin25 and 2 others like this.
  2. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I've met with him both last year and this year around our clean up efforts. We have also been discussing the range building efforts. They have said several times that they are really not experts in in firearms. But they have also continued to request help from us. When we have discussed building ranges they clearly said they dont know how to build a good and safe range and would like help from gun owners to build them. I can let the other guys chime in if they want, but I think they have been very open to these suggestions.

    When it comes to fire prevention, what has been most promising to me is that instead of saying "gun owners are starting fires, we need to outlaw shooting in the forest" they came to us and said "gun owners are starting fires, we need to give them safe places to shoot"

    That right there is opposite of what I would think any government agency would do.

    So they had several fires, they are trying to figure out how they occurred to prevent them from happening. So that is what he tried to get across at the clean up.

    Having talked to several of those guys (there are like 7 in the forest grove division) they are very open for getting our help. If you contacted them and said you had feedback on the discussion I bet they would be very open to hear it.

    I'd say for a government group they are doing way better than I would expect.
     
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  3. ZA_Survivalist

    ZA_Survivalist Oregon AK's all day.

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    I totally agree, when the wrong nomenclature is used or when hypothesized causes for fires are presented as fact it spreads the lie and misinformation that will no doubt get parroted and used by antis and the media. So its best to correct it before it takes hold.
     
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  4. ZigZagZeke

    ZigZagZeke Eugene Silver Supporter Silver Supporter 2015 Volunteer

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    As one of the people who helped initiate the roadside target shooter information booth with Cogs, I can say that the folks at the USFS in the Mt. Hood region are generally in favor of target shooting, and are trying to help us educate the public. They admit that they are (for the most part) not knowledgable about firearms, and they rely on us for some of that expertise. A few of them do suffer somewhat from a need to appear to be authoritative, but they seem to be very open to the correct information when they get off track. I think that they genuinely try to understand our problems, just as we try to understand theirs. So far, it's been a win-win situation. We need to do more of that. But we shouldn't tolerate misinformation being disseminated. We need to DIPLOMATICALLY correct misinformation wherever and whenever we encounter it, but let's not turn an ally into an adversary. We have enough of those already.
     
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  5. thorborg

    thorborg portland oregon Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I agree with your assessment of job expectations and the representatives involvement and so have held out hope of his earnestness. I also agree with your assessment of improved relationship and again hope it is ubiquitous throughout the department and not a few lower echelon worker bees. Lastly, I was encouraged by the positive reaction he showed when asked if he would like hands on experience in what happens to projectiles the young man had offered.
    Though I used his stories along with his effort to synthesize cause as a vehicle for mounting the soapbox, I was hoping via the opening disclaimer not to come across critical of his motives or integrity. Instead focusing on caution for us all towards repeating misinformation, misused vernacular, and speaking out when found.
     
  6. thorborg

    thorborg portland oregon Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Not my intent. Many could now be silenced by that statement. Given my effort to exonerate intent and focus on content it is still felt an adversarial position is being held, one might extrapolate silence is the best policy as not to offend. That does not seem a healthy alternative.
     
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  7. Mikej

    Mikej Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I believe the young man you speak of was @Reno911.
     
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  8. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    thorborg likes this.
  9. thorborg

    thorborg portland oregon Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Thank you kindly!
     
  10. thorborg

    thorborg portland oregon Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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  11. Reno911

    Reno911 Hillsboro Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    A quick heads up on the topic. Not a full detail drop, since I'm not in front of a computer to type up a good amount of details.

    I am continuing to meet with the Forest Grove office of the DOF. On this Thursday I am going to try and get a meeting established with Mike, the official in question, to get together and discuss this further and educate him as he is in much need of non anti-gun educational assistance.

    He is looking to work WITH us, that is the biggest thing to take from all of this. So hopefully through getting together out in the field and in the office we can give him a better picture of everything firearms.

    I'll type up more later guys, but remember Mike is high up and willing to work with us. He could just as easily shut us down. We'll get around to getting him up to speed as time goes on.
     
  12. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    Please don’t take my questions out of context, in full disclosure I’ve never used exploding targets (tannerite), "spark" or tracer ammunition and I am wondering how these items are accused of starting forest fires or how they do not start forest fires? How is it the forest service representative correlates these items with causing forest fires after citing examples?

    I shared an article above (see link) that I found a couple years ago that convinced me that ammo can start fires in the right conditions so I carry a fire extinguisher and/or water and shovel when target shooting on public lands (If I recall correctly, this is required during summer or high fire danger). The ammunition I buy is usually lead with copper jacket FMJ, SP or HP ammo. What are the different types of ammunition that are more or less prone to starting forest fires from fragmentation?
     
  13. thorborg

    thorborg portland oregon Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Excluding Tannerite, all the listed terms can start fires, my objection is in using the terms out of context, so for some, the association of the stories related with the terms used form a not factual biases producing a mentality of "so lets be safe and ban them all". Copper and lead do not spark. Tannerite explosion produces water molecules. new tracers are not pyro produced but other non pyro products currently beyond my knowledge. The gist of my soapbox delivery is I've seen too many regulations that stifle me based on warm and fuzzy feelings that supposedly are required NOW!, that not only don't fix anything bit actually cause irreparable harm with the ramrodding person or entity never being held accountable for them.
    Part two:
    Offering types of ammunition may be to complex to define (at least by me) since new ammo is constantly being offered, but breaking it down, my opine; Your link comes short of saying it all but only by omission and possibly its simplicity. Essentially, any metal currently used to core or jacket a bullet that is not lead can theoretically be heated to, and hold heat beyond the ignition point of many forest materials given the right conditions. This includes (albeit unlikely) gas checks used in cast bullets. Though Lead would seem to be exonerated, the root cause of its ability to fly (burning accelerant) and possibly wads / filler material, should not be overlooked as fire starting villains.
    For me, and why I feel comfortable shooting my cast bullets in dry weather is because I carry the required water and shovel plus fire extinguisher, don't stand knee deep in dried grasses and feel that any fire caused by my shooting will be in the immediate vicinity where I have a chance to put it out and not fifty yards away where by the time I see smoke and get to it may be too late.
    I'd like to say, I have worked on two forest fires and have great respect and fear for it's uncontrollable power. that said, I am not a chicken little either but like to think a methodic and rational thinker, I feel rules and regulations should be based on facts with the understanding sometimes $h-t happens. When government tries to make thing idiot proof, all will pay the price, not just the idiots. I have rarely seen a law that maters to me reversed or removed from the books.
     
  14. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    thorborg, thanks for the reply. Maybe one way we can help the cause is create education material for new shooters on the potential hazards and ammo types and any preventative measures...

    just brainstormin....