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All I'm gonna say is, being polite and courteous won Colorado gun owners absolutely squat.

It's a good point...
Is it a matter of numbers only? Did the city folk who have been brainwashed into being fearful of guns and gun owners simply outnumber the gun friendly people?

If that's the case, yelling "Libtard" at the majority only reinforces the stereotype of gun owners as being uneducated boobs.

If on the other hand, the gun friendly folks were calm, polite and courteous and EDUCATED the majority, the majority shrinks.

By the way, I am not saying my way is right. I lean towards it, and it is my opinion, but who's to really say when we're all going on our own opinions.

Does anyone know of published research on this topic?

Anything that we can do to help our brothers in Colorado, NY, NJ, etc... I'd love to see happen.

This state by state handcuffing is equivalent to the night time raids on gun owners, one at a time, in a slow motion kind of way.
 
I agree, to a degree. I work with a rather leftist sort. He wavers on guns. He owns and likes guns, but his liberal leanings make him favor gun control "for the children". He really thinks he is an open-minded moderate, but he drinks a lot more blue cool-aide than he lets on or even realizes.

A few careful, civil conversations seem to have swung him back the other way. I think that polite, reasonable arguments with facts and logic do a world more good than angry name-calling. I get pretty disgusted with leftist ideology and those who spout it, but I have to back up and realize that they are just people who have chosen to believe differently from me. That doesn't make them monsters, just people with a different world view.

He constantly argues with a friend of his who is more conservative than I am (and I am conservative). He sends forwarded email with feel-good conservative rantings, the type of stuff that is out of date, out of context, or just made up and easily disproved- the type of stuff that stirs up less informed conservatives but just makes us look bad to anyone who really checks it out.

He challenged me to find some good, scholarly info on various conservative issue, something that wasn't angry and one-sided, preaching to the choir. It was not easy. The vast majority of articles I found were aimed at stirring up the base, not convincing those on the fence.

And yes, it is frustrating trying to counter an opponent that doesn't value truth or honesty. I'm not saying that all liberals don't and conservatives do, by any means, but the leftist philosophy in general is much more likely to believe that the ends justify the means, so if you lie, cheat, steal and kill it's all good, so long as it's for the good of mankind in the end.

And please, I'm talking generalities here. If you are an honest liberal with strong principles then I'm not talking about you. If you're a conservative who forwards incendiary emails to your liberal friends without checking to see if they hold any water, please stop. You're just reinforcing their opinion of "ignorant conservatives" and making us look bad. :)
 
There is a gal that I have known since we were 4 or 5 years old. She is here in the Portland area and very, very liberal and asking many questions about why should we not ban guns. There have been some very heated arguments on Facebook. I finally offered to take her shooting, and she accepted, as she has never shot anything before. Not thinking I will convert her, but hoping to remove the stigma.
 
There is a gal that I have known since we were 4 or 5 years old. She is here in the Portland area and very, very liberal and asking many questions about why should we not ban guns. There have been some very heated arguments on Facebook. I finally offered to take her shooting, and she accepted, as she has never shot anything before. Not thinking I will convert her, but hoping to remove the stigma.

That's excellent, man! It actually worked to a full conversion to a few friends of mine who were fearful of and generally against guns... I haven't converted a true "ban them all" gunner yet, but I am trying.

A lot of these posts in here are probably frustrated by the anti-gun arguments and are just spoiling for a fight. I mean, you can tell by some of the posts that there is just a LOT of hate boiling around in there. I don't really blame them for feeling that way about anti-gunners, but I just think the friendly invitation to learn is SO much more productive for educating the anti's.

I wish you super good luck with your shoot, and would love to hear about how it goes!
 
I think I have kind of had it with the, "...oh gee these Liberals are really good people, they just have a different opinion...". Here, during WWII we really didn't think the Constitution meant all people were equal. So what did we do? We marched all the West Coast Japanese, including Japanese people born here, into concentration camps. My Wife's people were labeled and imprisoned because of their ethnicity.

My point isn't about Race or Religion. I don't want to start a tangent discussion/argument on either. My point is a bunch of people, who we would call "really nice" and "good hearted", decided "they" knew what the Constitution meant. They just had a "different opinion". They were wrong. People trying to pass laws to change the 2nd Amendment are simply wrong to. They aren't misunderstood. They are wrong. Period.

Yes, we can talk to Liberals, Progressives - or whatever they want to label themselves - nicely. We need to and try to educate them. But in the back of your mind you might want to consider at what point does all the talking stop. We already have that A _ _ _ _ _ _ Cumo providing a phone hotline so neighbors and family – who are "really nice people" can snitch on their friends and relatives to get their 500 pieces of silver.

Guess I'm really tired. We spend all this time telling each other, "...we just need to be nice...people will listen if we explain nicely where they are wrong...we just want to get along...". I really agree except to add that at some point all the talk will need to end and I think some believe they will be allowed to just keep talking forever.
 
Well Mike, considering that you are a fairly rare breed, (a Democrat who is a strong defender of the 2A) and as a Democrat has a deep reaching influence (far more than this Constitutionalist Conservative) on your members, perhaps you can start with your own in asking them to stop with all of the name calling, and pigeon holing those who are not gun-grabbing Democrats who defend the 2A? :s0155:

I'm not disagreeing with your premise, but you 2A Democrat folks have a full plate in educating, and "calming down" as it were the majority of your entire Party, and just as important those officials you keep electing into office that are in a outright permanent attack mode against the 2A which you so truly value.

We sure have a lot of well spoken members on this site, and threads like this tend to bring out the best with only a couple of "Drive By" derogatory types.

Ginfixx, I don't think I'm as rare as you might think. I'm really in the middle now in my political thinking, neither side would want me. LOL

As far as ME reaching anyone, there isn't anyone for me to reach, other than on this forum. One of my clients replied to me when I'd asked her about her going with Wifey and I to the mountains mushroom hunting, AND "Do a bit of shooting" that she would die happy if she NEVER saw or held a gun! You don't talk to people like that, and in my business you don't talk politics OR religion unless THEY bring it up. At least with me in the middle I can enjoy a conversation from either angle.

So it's really a beotch, the types of people that believe a ten round mag is safer than a twenty, the banning of the "Evil Black Rifle" make us all safer....You just don't convince those people, it's too much like religion, I could talk 'till I have no voice to a church goer that there's no way a man got a whole sea to separate so his people could pass safely and he would NEVER come to believe it.

It boils down to talking common sense, logic, facts etc. Name calling, ranting, YELLING will not convince ANYONE, not one person, quite the opposite. This is a good discussion, and hopefully it will help the name callers and derogatory types to speak in common sense and facts to the anti's. After all, we would fight for the right to THEIR free speech with the same energy as we fight for the law-biding's right to keep and bare arms, un-infringed!

Mike
 
There is no faster way to polarize a moderate against your cause than to insultingly refer to them as an extremist.

Take someone who says "well, I don't really see the problem with limiting magazine sizes, what does anyone really need 30 rounds for anyway" and start telling them what "the problem with people like you is" or "you libs are all the same" and they will very quickly adopt a much less accepting view of what sort of guns you should be allowed to own. At the same time, they will start tuning out everything you say, just as they tune out anyone else who starts spouting about how much more involved they should be in a cause that they don't care one fig about.

It's the people who really don't care that will make the difference in this decision. If we can convince them that we are safe, reasonable and reliable people who do not threaten their children, they will "not care" in our direction.

If we continue to scream about how much we hate libtards, they're going to be more apprehensive.
 
Hmmmm. things that make you go hmmmm.

I am going to have to slightly disagree with you PMB, and here is why.


3. They now say every Pro 2nd Amendment gun owner is a killer, and child killer none the less. They claim you and I are contributing to the deliberate death of people and do not deserve to even have constitutional rights.
.

So, I bet if you keep saying THIS^^^^^ over and over again it will make it true. Who is they?

What the.....
 
They: The ruling class, the oligarchs, the politicians, the corporations.

They are not us.

I had some old broad constantly on me in a research class last term about using "they".

Dianne Feinstein, Ginny Burdick, Michael Bloomberg, Celebrities, Barry, George Soros, to name a few.


"They" dont want "us" to have guns, but they want their people to. "They" want to destroy the fabric of "our country and control "us".
 
This topic poses a veiled question:

How committed are you to this cause?

It's a given that nearly everyone on this board will claim to be extremely committed to the preservation of 2A rights. Some of them certainly are. Many are not.

How do you know what someone's commitment level really is?

Easy answer. The people who are truly committed are willing to make sacrifices in order to advance their cause, and marry themselves to the idea that every little bit helps.

If you have taken the time to write your legislators, have taken the time to read and understand proposed legislation (to a point where you can identify and explain key components to others), have made relevant information accessible to people so that they may act upon it, or have sought to convert as many voters or activists to our side as possible, then you are demonstrating commitment. Preaching to the quoir and spewing bumper sticker slogans ("come and take them!", etc) is not commitment. That, by itself, is posturing.

Avoiding alienation of potential converts, despite being frustrated, angry, or exhausted by the tactics of the other side, is a sign of commitment. VOTES are the lifeblood of political careers. Every vote we capture, and every piece of correspondence with our legislators that we inspire, exerts pressure on them.

When you REALLY care, you buckle down, and do what it takes to create a positive change.

Ask yourselves what you are doing to advance 2A rights. What are you doing to create a positive change? Don't bother answering here. Answer it by either continuing existing work, stepping up if you're not active, or getting the bubblegum out of our way while others among us try to convert votes, and get people active.
 
If they don't want to be called names, they shouldn't be libtarded.

They are winning the fight because of this very tactic. They do not mind going on a rampage and calling you names.

I'm not so sure that name calling is winning their argument. They may win some points with some less mature people but, I believe, by and large, most people recognize calm and intelligent speech.
 
"I'm so committed to the 2nd amendment, I won't even TALK to anyone that isn't armed."
I am more than happy to talk WITH them.
But I refuse to stand still quietly while they talk AT me and about me, throwing rabid generalizations, derogatory terms/names, and generally false statements around the room/forum.

Want to have a dialog? Want to do it in public? Fine, I'm good with that.
Or, are you looking for an opportunity to throw lies out for the media to regurgitate and then duck out the back before my chance for rebuttal?

There is a lot of frustration on the part of gun owners and our advocates in the current climate, and tactics like the one ginny burdick recently used to; avoid the public forum at PSU, and; defend her actions afterwards, are disingenuous at best, and far worse than ANY name calling from either side.

Yet the media lap-dogs eat it up, and regurgitate it to the willfully ignorant.

So lets have a dialog.
But the lefties have to keep their fingers out of their ears, and won't be allowed to shout: LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA, or otherwise talk-over and shout down the opposing arguments.
And when it comes time for the press coverage to be edited, I get to film/record the process, for my own use(s) afterwards.

I rarely, if ever, use the term "libtard."
But only when I hear liberal/progressive anti gunners quit slamming The Constitution (that protects their right to say stupid sh!t) and stop pigeon-holing gun owners as racists, and fascists, and gun-toting-baby-killing-rednecks, will I defend them from the use of it.
And I won't call them a LIAR, which at the moment, I am fully justified in doing.

So what if a gun loving conservative calls your wife/friend/BIL/Dad etc a name.
"Sticks and Stones," remember?
I'd rather be called a name and have my gun rights left intact, thank you.

And to all you "gun loving" liberal/progressive types,...
CLEAN YOUR OWN HOUSE FIRST.

The misinformation campaign, the mockery, and crusade of half-truths and outright lies that leftist/liberal/progressive politicians are engaged in against gun owners is shameful by ANY standards of honest debate and dialog.
And if they become laws, we'll test their constitutionality later before the SCOTUS I guess.

But in the meantime, be prepared to bear the brunt of the blame for the way you voted, and pay the political price for your candidates and elected officials.

But most of all, if you want to point fingers, start on your own side of the aisle, and stop making excuses for the less-than-stellar ideas your political choices are coming up with in the "gun control" debate.
 
This protection of our freedom is not going to be provided by the NRA, the GOP, or Lars Larson. If you want to go to bed at night feeling secure about your rights, and if our two party system keeps on rolling along, you will have to convince some democrats to see the 2nd amendment clearly, as it was intended, by the creators. I am someone who sides with the democrats on most issues, not this one. I talk to many people on both sides of all political issues, and I think name calling is the quickest way to shut someones mind to whatever you may have to say. You don't want to make an individual who would call himself a democrat your enemy, in fact you should not even think of him as an enemy, because if you do, you are defeating your own purpose. Feinstein is an enemy to the 2nd amendment, among other things (rational thought for example), but democrats are potential partners in getting her un-elected.
 
We have to be honest, folks. There are a LOT of people who are nominally on our side who are actively screwing us by perpetuating stereotypes. Facebook is saturated with posts by people who claim to be pro-2A, but who have no idea whatsoever what is contained in any of the proposed legislation, the processes for passage of legislation, or the current status of the proposals. These people are posturing, name calling, and displaying incredible ignorance about an issue that they claim to be passionate about.

Many of the people on the other side who are resorting to name calling and bumper sticker sloganeering are responding in kind to what they are seeing from a lot of the people who call themselves pro-gun. Many of them are hostile because they have been greeted with hostility.

People on both sides are pointing fingers across the divide, saying, "I'm only doing this because you do it to me!"

The high road is not easy, but it is the road to victory. This is a war with a very tight margin. We need to continue grinding out incremental victories, even when we appear to be victorious. This fight will not end. If the AWB finally dies, and the UN treaty threat is eliminated, we have to anticipate another event, and another round of all of this garbage. We don't have the luxury of taking a break.

Each of our actions must be weighed in terms of whether it advances or hinders our cause. Every time we alienate a potential convert, we LOSE a swing vote. Every time we respond to emotional arguing with logic and reason, and demonstrate that the facts are on our side, we WIN.

Every move must be carefully calculated.
 
"Conservatives" are every bit as good at being dumb as "Liberals" are.

The ignorant that like to hear themselves yell actively engage in it, as do the internet trolls.

On Blue Oregon, on NWFA, everywhere.

Kind of funny though hearing so many hear say "I never do it, but 'those people' they are always doing that stuff!".

Anyone on this site left of center of any flavor are instantly jumped with insults. :s0114:
 
I often wonder what words and BS would liberals be spewing if it was Republicans headlining and spearheading gun control or even worse limiting the 1st amendment. Kind of ironic isn't it.
 
Yes, they're so despicable that I feel like I'm entitled to be even more despicable just to keep up.

A long time ago my Dad told me that we're each responsible for what we say and how we act. "Whatever nasty things other people may say and do, it never justifies you to be an a-hole."

Now, I haven't always followed that rule, but I wish I had.
 

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