Pistol to SBR to Pistol ????

[wired]

I know you can put a long barrel on an SBR and travel across state lines with an SBR without a 5320.20 . The question I have is when you start with a pistol and SBR it can you do the same thing if you take the buttstock off. Its not configured as an SBR any more so its not an SBR at that moment. Its a pistol It makes sense but I have never seen an ATF letter to that effect. Obviously if you take the stock of a glock pistol you SBR'd you arent going to go putting a 16" barrel on it. Nothing from the ATF I can find.

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[The Heretic]

Yes. Can't find it right now (too lazy) but I recall this particular question being asked and answered (I think).

Whether it is an SBR or not, you can go from pistol to rifle to pistol, and from NFA to not-NFA in the case of an SBR (as you mentioned).

 

[wired]

Id like to see an actual letter. Everyone has an opinion.

 

[Member 34319]

IDK as I've seen folks have legit SBRs and leave the brace on it as a stock just to F with everyone.

Im curious though, if you were to engrave the barrel like you did on that shorty shotty a while back (I think that was you), if you could just swap barrels? SBR when it has that barrel on it, pistol without it on it, or rifle with a 16"+ on it…

 

[wired]

IDK as I've seen folks have legit SBRs and leave the brace on it as a stock just to F with everyone.

Im curious though, if you were to engrave the barrel like you did on that shorty shotty a while back (I think that was you), if you could just swap barrels? SBR when it has that barrel on it, pistol without it on it, or rifle with a 16"+ on it…

Thats right. SBS when its short. shotgun when its long Pistol without a stock SBR with a stock.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I know you can put a long barrel on an SBR and travel across state lines with an SBR without a 5320.20 . The question I have is when you start with a pistol and SBR it can you do the same thing if you take the buttstock off. Its not configured as an SBR any more so its not an SBR at that moment. Its a pistol It makes sense but I have never seen an ATF letter to that effect. Obviously if you take the stock of a glock pistol you SBR'd you arent going to go putting a 16" barrel on it. Nothing from the ATF I can find.

If it's an sbr wouldn't it still be officially an sbr with ATF (ie a seperate category than rifle or pistol). I mean if the ATFers looked up the serial # on the gun it's gonna come back as an sbr and if you have the out of state form back they are gonna say ok and if you don't have the travel form then there is some splainin' to do.

I wouldn't want to be explaining to the ATF cuz you never know who u are going to talk to or what they will think. F.e. a Portland agent seized boxes of toy airsoft guns saying they can be converted into "machine guns", and ATF formerly ruled a shoestring, by itself, is a machine gun. If u make their job easy (Fe they look up serial #, see u have the travel form done) then u would have much more predictable results I would think. 2 cents...

 

[saxon]

once an NFA always an NFA unless destroyed. putting a longer barrel on it does not take it off the NFA register
crossing state lines and getting pulled over and them running the gun and finding it as an NFA good luck. not a lawyer but my keyboard thinks i am

 

[Member 34319]

Thats right. SBS when its short. shotgun when its long Pistol without a stock SBR with a stock.

It could be worth calling the hotline?

 

[SCARed]

once an NFA always an NFA unless destroyed. putting a longer barrel on it does not take it off the NFA register
crossing state lines and getting pulled over and them running the gun and finding it as an NFA good luck. not a lawyer but my keyboard thinks i am

Uhhh, kinda.. but no.
It only an NFA item, subject to NFA laws/regulations, when in a NFA configuration. The ONLY exception to that is a Machine gun. Once a machine gun, always a machine gun.

 

[MobileTaylor]

Lots of conflicting information/opinions in this thread. I would suggest spending some time in the NFA subreddit. I think you will find some better information.

 

[saxon]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...transportation
Quote:

Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms? If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.

now if this is an AR then the LOWER is the SBR and putting a longer barrel does not change the status of the SBR lower,
caveat sure no problem go to another state BUT if for some reason LEO runs the ser and it comes up SBR in a non SBR state....

 

[wired]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...transportation
Quote:

Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms? If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.

now if this is an AR then the LOWER is the SBR and putting a longer barrel does not change the status of the SBR lower,
caveat sure no problem go to another state BUT if for some reason LEO runs the ser and it comes up SBR in a non SBR state....

Theres no problem. If its not configured as an SBR and the owner doesnt have control of the parts meaning the parts are not with him. then its just a rifle and we presume a pistol although the ATF never actually comes out and says that. Its only an SBR when configured as an SBR. The lower is the part the serial numbers come from but if its not set up as an SBR its not an SBR no matter what the paperwork says. Thats how SBR's and SBS's differ from machineguns and silencers.

 

[wired]

once an NFA always an NFA unless destroyed. putting a longer barrel on it does not take it off the NFA register
crossing state lines and getting pulled over and them running the gun and finding it as an NFA good luck. not a lawyer but my keyboard thinks i am

Thats not true. SBR's and SBS's can be reconfigured to be "normal" title 1 guns again . It doesnt matter if they are in the registry otherwise . That is as long as the owner does not have the change parts with him.

 

[MobileTaylor]

And if the gun can't become a rifle?

You purchase a Stribog A3. To my knowledge they only come as a pistol. The upper is serialized, so that gets the tax stamp. You do a form 1 to make it an SBR. Then have it removed from the registry. It can't become a rifle. Some are suggesting it can't go back to a pistol. So are you saying it would need to be destroyed?

 

[The Heretic]

And if the gun can't become a rifle?

You purchase a Stribog A3. To my knowledge they only come as a pistol. The upper is serialized, so that gets the tax stamp. You do a form 1 to make it an SBR. Then have it removed from the registry. It can't become a rifle. Some are suggesting it can't go back to a pistol. So are you saying it would need to be destroyed?

I don't know about a Stribog pistol, but you can legally make a pistol into a rifle and then back to a pistol again. As long as the barrel is 16"+ you can put a buttstock on it and it is then a GCA rifle, not subject to the NFA.

The test case was the T/C Contender and the SCOTUS held for Thompson Center.

 

[The B]

I dont keep up on these things anymore, since i no longer have anything in SBR configuration anymore, but i once had a series of ATF explanatory memos that cleared up this question - ATF's position was, at that time (they do change their minds from time to time, afterall), was that a weapon is only an SBR when its configured as an SBR. The tax stamp allows it to be an SBR, but its NOT an SBR if its configured as a rifle - furthmore, when asked how to return an SBR to non-SBR, for instance when traveling to or even moving to a state where SBRs aren't allowed, their position is simply: just put a longer barrel on it, and its no longer an SBR. Forever, if need be. They dont care.

as to the question of having a gun "run" in an unfriendly state - i have never seen any state law anywhere that says anything about NFA status, which is totally outside the bounds of state law. If a state prohibits short barreled weapons, they prohibit any gun that measures shorter than 16" from breech to fixed end of barrel. Its totally irrelevant how long the barrel ISNT- they care how long the barrel IS

some guys hand-wring on this topic way, way too hard.. its pretty simple and very low risk, so long as you use common sense.

 

[wired]

I dont keep up on these things anymore, since i no longer have anything in SBR configuration anymore, but i once had a series of ATF explanatory memos that cleared up this question - ATF's position was, at that time (they do change their minds from time to time, afterall), was that a weapon is only an SBR when its configured as an SBR. The tax stamp allows it to be an SBR, but its NOT an SBR if its configured as a rifle - furthmore, when asked how to return an SBR to non-SBR, for instance when traveling to or even moving to a state where SBRs aren't allowed, their position is simply: just put a longer barrel on it, and its no longer an SBR. Forever, if need be. They dont care.

as to the question of having a gun "run" in an unfriendly state - i have never seen any state law anywhere that says anything about NFA status, which is totally outside the bounds of state law. If a state prohibits short barreled weapons, they prohibit any gun that measures shorter than 16" from breech to fixed end of barrel. Its totally irrelevant how long the barrel ISNT- they care how long the barrel IS

some guys hand-wring on this topic way, way too hard.. its pretty simple and very low risk, so long as you use common sense.

Thats the whole issue though. They are very clear on "just put a longer barrel on it and its good to go " but thats really an old mindset based on when SBR's were just hacksawed off rifles. Now you have glocks that are SBR's, SBR'd AR's that started as pistols , HK SP5 "Pistols" that you cant just put a longer barrel on. The do not specifically address pistols that are made into SBR's anywhere that I can find. Some people even suggest that because you have made it into an SBR you have created a rifle that cannot go back to being a pistol ever which is a total bunch of crap.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

To me it's more of a question of risk in terms of dealing with atf bs, not so much risk of "is it legal", or "would u win eventually in court if they tried to prosecute you".

From what I have seen atf can be very much incorrect in dealing out prosecutions and even going to extreme lengths to get prosecutions (such as convincing mentally retarded people to sell firearms to a convicted felon). So to me the real risk is running into an atf person who is on a crusade, trying to get a promotion, on a power trip, does not know their own rules, whatever. You would eventually win if it is technically legal but man ur life would be hell in the meantime.

I have dealt with federal regulatory agencies for many years and u would be surprised at the lengths an individual employee can go to. and guess what the penalty usually is they r found to make a mistake (particularly a BIG mistake), they are transferred to another office usually via a promotion (not kidding).

some example rogue tactics:

ATF agents use rogue tactics in stings across the U.S.

The agency said failures of its Milwaukee operation were isolated, but the Journal Sentinel found similar issues in at least six cities nationwide — targeting the mentally disabled, encouraging crimes and more.

archive.jsonline.com

As a case in point, note that one of the individual (Saier) named in that Florida sting fiasco above has been promoted and is now special agent in charge and the one who sent the cease and desist letter to rare breed for their frt trigger.

Every individual has different tolerances for risk but what I am saying is there is a very real risk of incorrect atf proesecution even if u are technically legal. Just something to be aware of and the atf attention would have to be triggered by something for it to get on their radar (note the recent Garfield wa -a town of 600 poeple- prosecution for illegal 4th of July cannon which was triggered by a local law enforcement "safety check").

 

[The B]

Thats the whole issue though. They are very clear on "just put a longer barrel on it and its good to go " but thats really an old mindset based on when SBR's were just hacksawed off rifles. Now you have glocks that are SBR's, SBR'd AR's that started as pistols , HK SP5 "Pistols" that you cant just put a longer barrel on. The do not specifically address pistols that are made into SBR's anywhere that I can find. Some people even suggest that because you have made it into an SBR you have created a rifle that cannot go back to being a pistol ever which is a total bunch of crap.

Just follow the laws as usual - if its illegal to make a pistol into a rifle, then dont make a pistol into a rifle. Doesnt matter if the pistol is allowed to be an SBR where legal - if its not allowed to be a rifle, then its not allowed to be a rifle... make sense? NFA -only- allows you to have a short barreled rifle, it doesnt change anything else about the guns legality.

i think the rules on rifle to pistol and pistol to rifle have changed in the last decade or so, since i havent really been keeping up - used to be, the OFFICIAL (but totally unenforced) position of the ATF was that once a receiver was a pistol, it could never be a rifle... but sounds like thats changed.. even though we were all doing it anyway.. so a gun thats manufactured to be a pistol isnt ever going to be an SBR anyway.. but even if that rule has changed, the simple answer is: if its no longer in SBR configuration, all the normal rules for whatever it is still apply. If its illegal to make a pistol a rifle, dont make a pistol a rifle.

 

[The B]

You have to take these weird and vague rulings into full perspective - nobody out there is just TRYING to bust you if youre following the rules and obviously not trying to get away with anything. Nobody ever gets prosecuted for following the rules to the best of their ability. We all hear these rare and highly occasional tales of dudes getting popped by ATF and makes it sound scary, but in every instance that ive done more digging on, it turns out the dude- despite claiming to the contrary- was actually in pretty clear violation or was duly suspected of clear violations, before they got popped on something seemingly-innocuous.

furthermore - and this is an important point of law - state level law enforcement does NOT enforce federal laws/rules. Its literally not within their legal ability to do. They can forward investigations to the ATF/FBI/whatever, for potential prosecution, but at that point the federal agency LIKEWISE will NOT enforce state laws. So either its a state violation, or its a federal violation, its never a weird vague confusing combination of the two. If you are in compliance with federal law, ATF will leave it alone. If its in compliance with the exact phrasing of the state law - which always focuses on the configuration of the gun, NOT bearing anything related to NFA registration (to my knowledge - has anyone ever seen any state law that prohibits a weapon based purely on whether or not it happens to be NFA registered?), then its in compliance with state law and also a non issue

all any cop cares about and all his authority to investigate, when holding a gun of yours in their hand and checking for compliance with law, is whether or not the physical gun in his hands is legal in his jurisdiction. If its an unfriendly state, so long as its in a legal configuration for that state, he literally cannot legally take that any further.