Pistol Operation

[MarkAd]

I think with all the debate 2 things are clear. There are a lot of opinions. And there are a lot more opinions. Here are mine.
If I have to reload i will do what works for med.
i am going to take my less expensive 45 out for some hard testing of overhand and slide release, and see if the economy of movement is really fast enough to make a real difference. Lets call real difference a 1/10th of a second for purpose of a matrix.
I am going to introduce more failure drills. into my training cause I haven't been doing a lot of gun handling recently due to medical issues.

Some of you are sort of arrogant in some of your ideals. Especially those that are incorrect.

I tihik I would drop by the SF area here on post and see what they train to.

 

[addiction]

I think with all the debate 2 things are clear. There are a lot of opinions. And there are a lot more opinions.

haha, reminds of this quote "the science is clear, all the experts (that I believe) agree that I am right"

 

[The B]

I tihik I would drop by the SF area here on post and see what they train to.

YouTube - ‪bubblegum special forces Join the Rangers!‬‏

qued up for your convenience.

 

[clearconscience]

I always you the slide drop lever. I don't think in anyway this would wear out or become not functional.
When racking the slide by hand I feel you have to move yourself out of firing position or your handgun anyways. And it would seem to take a few extra seconds and seconds count.

But really I don't think it matters, you have to do what your comfortable with and whatever you practice is what is going to work better for you. You just have to stick with one way and practice, practice, practice.

Whatever your technique is you have to shoot fast and accurate. And if need be reload the same way.

 

[The B]

poorly designed pistols slide stops get all burred up just from stopping the slide on an empty mag. actuating the release isn't going to add anything perceptible to that. the jarring slam to a haul at the end of a magazine is WAY more abusive than just sliding it down.

my 1911s slide stops would burr up, and i still used the slide-rack method back then. my current carry glock, which has something in the neighborhood of 13,000 rounds through it, every single reload done with the slide-stop, has NO burring at the stopstop notch.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I thought I said that? Build accuracy first then work on speed, if you get faster and accuracy suffers, slow down and practice more. Every one will have a plateau, that is, where they have trained to their maximum speed/accuracy capability.

I wish people on here would stop spouting off expert opinions they heard somewhere else third hand, read in a blog, made up or misconstrued.

I started playing paintball in 1984 with bolt action pistols that had to be tilted to load each shot. Pump action with gravity feed was a major breakthrough. I finished up my paintball career 13 years later playing in pro tournaments with semi-auto's firing 8 rounds per second. After dozens of wins in 5 man tournaments I will tell you that anybody can throw paint or lead at half a dozen rounds per second or better. The difference between taking out your opponent and simply wasting rounds is accuracy. Accuracy wins every time. But it's not the kind of accuracy you look for at the range from a bench rest. It's being able to hit where you look. It's the ability to hit a grapefruit sized target at 25 yards without using sights. It takes thousands of rounds of practice.

The other essential is movement. In a firefight you're dead if you are stationary more than a few seconds. It's all about angles, movement, use of cover, and fields of fire. The enemy is always trying to flank and gain an angle or pin you down. Movement is everything.

 

[sig40shooter]

For me, with my hand size, and my pistol size, I personally prefer to use the slide release. It is easy to reach and when the slide is held back at the end of a mag I will insert the new and drop the slide and be ready to continue firing, never loosing sight picture. Also, with my sig 229, I can feel the mag spring vibrate when I have 3 left in the mag. That gives me 4 shots prior notice that a mag is almost done. I would agree with the idea that what works best for you is the best approach however, if you are in a gun fight and have to reload then you NEED to improve accuracy and handling tense situations. Try target shooting while someone pelts you with airsoft rounds. Anything to help you focus under adverse conditions. Accuracy Accuracy Accuracy!!! End the gunfight with the first round!

 

[Spitpatch]

I did a quick geneology trace on Zeke and Sig40. They are direct descendants of Wyatt Earp.

 

[JRV]

LOL comparing gun games and using a slide stop instead of over hand racking is nonsense.

Just because its faster doesn't mean its more efficient. I'm a lefty and I run a glock, using the slide stop isn't faster. As far as this moving the gun out of the shooting position is shenanigans. You reload at full extension, if so I won't get into retention issues. As far as sweeping, really?

Fine motor skills go out the window during critical stress.

Not to mention its called a "slide stop" for a reason not a slide release.

Firmly on the side of slide release. Kind of surprised to see a discussion of it. You're taking the firearm out of battery to rack the slide (I don't know anybody who racks the slide in the firing position, and it wouldn't be a good idea if it were ergonomically feasible because you'd have no control of where the muzzle wanders). Completely unnecessary, much slower, and potentially dangerous if you're not cautious where you're pointing it.

So by racking the slide after changing mags you are:

1. Taking the firearm further from the firing position, slowing you down.
2. In taking the firearm out of firing position, you're sweeping the muzzle who know where, probably somewhere towards your foot or leg.
3. Every time you drop a slide, you're taking a minute chance the firearm will discharge. That's why we train to be conscious of where the muzzle points when doing this

By using the slide release, you

-keep the firearm pointed down range, decreasing the chance of shooting yourself
-increase speed

Sweeping the slide release with you firing hand thumb shouldn't require losing your firing grip position. If it does, the firearm is too large for your hand. Your fingers stay in the same position. Moving the thumb to the slide relase and back should synchronize with re-indexing your support hand and allow your firing hand thumb to lie alongside your support thumb in the proper "long thumbs" cocked forward position.

It may take a little practice, but practice will train your sequence of actions with no problem. It is true that gross muscle movement is more reliable under stress than fine motor control. Sweeping your thumbup and down is not a fine motor movement. Reloading a magazine with rounds, wirting your name, putting a key in a keyhole, even gripping a slide: these are fine motor movements. Slide locks and thumb safeties are designed deliberately to be easy to sweep with a thumb. Kimber Custom, I recommend trying an experiment: unload your firearm (ideally have two). Lock the slide back. Do 5 minutes of jumping jacks as fast as you can while squeezing a stress ball in each hand on every jump. Now try both methods (slide release and slide rack) and see which is easier. It should be fairly obvious.

Somebody mentioned changing partial mags "in the heat" of action. Respectully, I doubt it. If your blood gets up you are going to empty that mag. The only time you would be able to switch partial mags is precisely when you're NOT in the heat of combat. When you have some momentary respite. And even then I doubt you will have counted your rounds.

When the slide locks back on an empty magazine is a perfect time to change it. You know you can't go any further with the current mag, because there's no more boom. The slide is back, a new mag only needs a sweep of the thumb and you're ready to fire again. The gun stays pointed in roughly the right direction, it's much faster back to readiness etc. etc.

Watch some videos people post of IPSC or IDPA matches, where they are being timed. I guarantee nobody who wins a match will have manually racked the slide on a fresh mag.

~NRA Certified Instructor # 178467647: Pistol and Chief Range Safety Officer

 

[JRV]

‪Pistol Handling-The Overhand Method‬‏ - YouTube

 

[sig40shooter]

LOL spitpatch! Thank you JRV for sharing your youtube find. Very good information!!!

 

[Riot]

‪Pistol Handling-The Overhand Method‬‏ - YouTube

FAIL

Lol, he talks about consistency with the reload by using this method....then adapts it to firearms with decocking levers on the slide.

Here is my last two cents on this topic...

There is no better method. Period. What may work better for you, might not work for me. What may work with one firearm, might not work for another (even suggested by including a Bersa .380 in the video). Making things uniform because they work for you, or even most people is not a solution. Neither method is a bad habit. They both have there pros and cons.

 

[Thebastidge]

The "slide stop" is internal and locks the slide back when the magazine is empty. The "slide release" is external and releases the slide. You can manually engage the slide stop using the slide release lever, but they are not the same thing. If you must be pedantic, try to be correct.

All the rules for training people on right-handed guns go out the window for lefties.

You can do one of three things: You can get a left-handed or ambidextrous gun. You can learn to shoot right handed (several lefties I know do this, and in fact can't shoot worth a damn left-handed.) Or, you can accept some inefficiencies in shooting a right-handed gun with a left-handed style. But the basic principles of what is best practice don't change- deviation from them for a personal disability like gripping strength issues, arthritis, or being left-handed (I kid, I kid!) are necessary practical COMPROMISES, not best practices.

Ergonomically conserving motions, practicing safety, consistency of grip and stance; these principles don't change. But determining if a particular motion is necessary is up to the individual's circumstances.

 

[JRV]

Lol at fail. Considering I teach his program and was certified by Rob I think I know what he teaches and what we teach in the program.

D.B.A.C

FAIL

Lol, he talks about consistency with the reload by using this method....then adapts it to firearms with decocking levers on the slide.

Here is my last two cents on this topic...

There is no better method. Period. What may work better for you, might not work for me. What may work with one firearm, might not work for another (even suggested by including a Bersa .380 in the video). Making things uniform because they work for you, or even most people is not a solution. Neither method is a bad habit. They both have there pros and cons.

 

[JRV]

News flash you don't change the way you train a lefty. You train them the same way you would anyone else in a class.

D.B.A.C

The "slide stop" is internal and locks the slide back when the magazine is empty. The "slide release" is external and releases the slide. You can manually engage the slide stop using the slide release lever, but they are not the same thing. If you must be pedantic, try to be correct.

All the rules for training people on right-handed guns go out the window for lefties.

You can do one of three things: You can get a left-handed or ambidextrous gun. You can learn to shoot right handed (several lefties I know do this, and in fact can't shoot worth a damn left-handed.) Or, you can accept some inefficiencies in shooting a right-handed gun with a left-handed style. But the basic principles of what is best practice don't change- deviation from them for a personal disability like gripping strength issues, arthritis, or being left-handed (I kid, I kid!) are necessary practical COMPROMISES, not best practices.

Ergonomically conserving motions, practicing safety, consistency of grip and stance; these principles don't change. But determining if a particular motion is necessary is up to the individual's circumstances.

 

[Thebastidge]

I mean the mechanical motions are different for lefties. Not just reversed. That should be pretty obvious from the tag end of what you quoted above. But now you're just being contentious.

 

[wichaka]

All manipulations of the gun are done in close, not at full extension as Rob demonstrates in the video link posted. This is where we humans have the most of our strength and dexterity, yes even in a time of critical stress.

Whatever method one chooses, it should be the system you use when dry firing, live fire, CQB, Sims, and on out to the street. The bottom line, stay consistent with whatever you choose.
If you choose to carry different types of guns that have different fire controls, make sure your mind is set with what you have in the holster, as well as the holster you're using at the time.

The best example of not getting the proper mind set when changing guns, is like driving a stick shift vehicle for days on end, then jump in a auto-trans rig. One will tend to grab for the stick shift that's not there, and your foot will stab for the phantom clutch peddle.
Also remember the youtube video of that Tex guy that shot himself. He changed holster types and didn't reset his mind to the different function style.

There has been a lot of junk written by people who have only heard shots fired at a range or on t.v. Competitions such as IPSC, IDPA etc., have their place. Competition is fun, and if applied correctly to your training regimen, can really improve your marksmanship and overall handling/manipulation skills.
Be careful not to use competition and competition shooters to drive your equipment and training for you. As some of the equipment, moving to fast for tactical situations, as well as "showing clear" after a string of fire can have you making a premature purchase of the proverbial farm on the street.

You'd be wise to seek out folks who have seen parts of the elephant, better yet, have seen them a few times and different parts, you'll get a better perspective on things.

Be well.