JavaScript is disabled
Our website requires JavaScript to function properly. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser settings before proceeding.
There's a major difference between clearing drills and reloading. Yes, clearing a malfunction I would not hit the slide release, because in all likelihood, the slide is not locked back in that case.

On the "reload when you can, not when you have to" philosophy: It depends. What is your most likely scenario as a civilian preventing a crime against yourself or another person? In one sense, this whole discussion goes to something that is very unlikely to happen for anyone here- a sustained engagement that requires more than one magazine. Even if you're carrying a single-stack 1911 with 8 rounds, it's unlikely you'll use them all and need another mag. But if no help is around and the criminal is that determined, I don't think you can afford to waste rounds. How many spare mags do you carry? I'm not bothered to admit, most of the time my spare mag is in the car. It's simply not practical to carry extras a lot of the time.

We're not the US Military with a huge logistical tail to support us. We're not carrying eight 30-round mags strapped to our chest. We don't have buddies around with standardized equipment and support on the way. It would be different if I were a police officer and therefore increasing my chance of a deadly force encounter.

It's entirely possible that even as civilians we may have to engage multiple aggressors, since criminals often work in pairs or teams. So yes, there's a possibility of needing a mag change, and it's always worth doing drills for these kinds of situations. But when you're applying what you learned from books, videos, the Marine Corps or whatever, realize that one size doesn't fit all.

This is a reason why I carry a firearm with a little more capacity. I like the .40 for the reasonable stopping power combined with the higher capacity. It stops almost as well as a .45, but if there are multiple aggressors, I have more rounds available. YMMV.
 
There's a major difference between clearing drills and reloading. Yes, clearing a malfunction I would not hit the slide release, because in all likelihood, the slide is not locked back in that case.

On the "reload when you can, not when you have to" philosophy: It depends. What is your most likely scenario as a civilian preventing a crime against yourself or another person? In one sense, this whole discussion goes to something that is very unlikely to happen for anyone here- a sustained engagement that requires more than one magazine. Even if you're carrying a single-stack 1911 with 8 rounds, it's unlikely you'll use them all and need another mag. But if no help is around and the criminal is that determined, I don't think you can afford to waste rounds. How many spare mags do you carry? I'm not bothered to admit, most of the time my spare mag is in the car. It's simply not practical to carry extras a lot of the time.

We're not the US Military with a huge logistical tail to support us. We're not carrying eight 30-round mags strapped to our chest. We don't have buddies around with standardized equipment and support on the way. It would be different if I were a police officer and therefore increasing my chance of a deadly force encounter.

It's entirely possible that even as civilians we may have to engage multiple aggressors, since criminals often work in pairs or teams. So yes, there's a possibility of needing a mag change, and it's always worth doing drills for these kinds of situations. But when you're applying what you learned from books, videos, the Marine Corps or whatever, realize that one size doesn't fit all.

This is a reason why I carry a firearm with a little more capacity. I like the .40 for the reasonable stopping power combined with the higher capacity. It stops almost as well as a .45, but if there are multiple aggressors, I have more rounds available. YMMV.

I see that you are in Kabul: I'm carrying M4 & M9 in Gardez. :cool: I'm home by the end of next month. :s0155:

("You" is rhetorical in the following.)

I think that the most important thing to take away from this discussion, is to experiment & find techniques that work for YOU with whatever you are carrying; but practice extensively so that you can prevail under any expected conditions. This includes practicing until you can reload or reduce a stoppage in the dark (blindfolded) within seconds from any normal firing position - standing, kneeling, prone, supine.

Without practice, you have no confidence. Without confidence, you will probably lose.
 
Yes, I'm in Kabul, and tho I carry daily at home, I'm actually unarmed here. Not a situation I care for much. In Iraq I carried a Glock 19, for reasons of compatible ammunition with Coalition Forces- I'm not a fan of the M9. Most of the civilians and LE agencies there carried Glocks.

I'm planning to be here for quite some time. My current contract goes through the end of the year and into 2012. Hope to be home for good by December 2012.
 
M9: Good basic, solid, piece, but dated design. I have a 92FS at home which I CC. Looking forward to getting either XDm or Glock compact for CC after I get home.

I expressed a "birthday wish" for an ACR: HH6 hasn't told me "No".

Found out one reason why they are so expensive: In a May 2010 edition of The American Rifleman (found here on the FOB), article says that Remington developed a proprietary finish impregnated with a dry lubricant for the metal parts (including inside the bore) which should double barrel life.

I handled the Basic ($1800) and Enhanced ($2100) versions at the Expo Gun Show in April (Keith's had one of each on one of their tables). A little front-heavy compared to ARs. Heavier overall compared to ARs, but I daresay much more robust.
 
M9: Good basic, solid, piece, but dated design. I have a 92FS at home which I CC. Looking forward to getting either XDm or Glock compact for CC after I get home.

I expressed a "birthday wish" for an ACR: HH6 hasn't told me "No".

Found out one reason why they are so expensive: In a May 2010 edition of The American Rifleman (found here on the FOB), article says that Remington developed a proprietary finish impregnated with a dry lubricant for the metal parts (including inside the bore) which should double barrel life.

I handled the Basic ($1800) and Enhanced ($2100) versions at the Expo Gun Show in April (Keith's had one of each on one of their tables). A little front-heavy compared to ARs. Heavier overall compared to ARs, but I daresay much more robust.

I don't care what their reasoning is for the ACR to be so darned expensive...they could have hand made the thing and I still won't buy it.
 
Opinions are like ... you know. And you are welcome to have one. I suspected I was going to draw a lot of flack over that comment. But that's how I feel now when I see Hollywood and anyone else doing it.

I have an milsurp handgun that had a worn-out slide catch that wouldn't keep the slide locked open after firing the last round. Had the issue fixed. Root cause? hard to tell, but I stopped pressing the release button and the issue has not recurred. So, there you have it, one gun with a worn out slide catch. After a while, I stopped doing it on all the other guns. I rarely ever do it any more. If you want to keep pressing the release button, go ahead. Your choice. The worst could happen is a worn out catch. Drop in a new one and voila!

I also noticed slide has better chances to go into battery when the slide is racked v. pressing the release button. Fact or fiction? Dunno, haven't run a scientific experiment. But I seem to get better results, especially when shooting the dirty Russian lacquer coated stuff or 22lr.

I have attended a handful of safety and defensive handgun classes. For all the reasons listed above, in every case, only slide racking was ever advised. I see the wisdom in taking up habits that provide the most consistent results regardless of the gun and ammo I shoot with, and shooting conditions.
 
as i have been trained.


Reload when you can, NOT when you have to.
so practice reloading as described above, (with one in the chamber ready to go) and the above emergency reload, where your slide is locked back. both are good ways to practice.


when not behind cover, and reloading i would hope to keep my muzzle on targets, as i drop a mag, and reload (this leaves me one in the chamber incase i decide i need another shot before i get that mag in, or get caught off guard.
this would be the non emergency reload, or reloading when i can.



reloading when you have to or emergency reloading , reloading when our out of ammo in your firearm, communicate with your partner if you have one, RELOADING, or Going Cold, etc, drop mag, insert new mag, put muzzle back on target if not already there and drop the slide, ( i like dropping the slide with the release better for me, it seems faster, and my non trigger hand seems to have less of a distance to travel from the bottom of the magazine well, to my fireing pos.)




Now onto your second question, which most people seemed to ignore .

malfunction /clearances

Tap Rack Bang

simple 3 part solution, Tap means slapping the bottom of your pistol, to make sure your magazine is fully seated.


Rack, Over Hand (NOT PINCHY) C shaped, Cuping action pulling the slide rearward, to clear malfunctions. (carefull as one member pointed out earlier, that you do not cover the ejection port) PRACTICE.


Bang . shoot


if problem not fixed, Repeat as above.

Exactly, as I have been trained, and trained others. Also, to take it one step further, if I have to reload, it is an emergency. It means I have not rendered my opponent a non-threat. I find that in training with a one handed hold (only about half as accurate as two handed, for me, but it is neccesary to know/train both ) I can stay on target and reload quickly by using a simple technique. Having a pistol with an ambidextrous mag catch, and my trigger finger (or thumb) to release the magazine. After doing this for a while, I have found that my pistols that do not have this feature have become rather cumbersome. (I keep meaning to change over a couple more to ambi catches but have procrastinated, some others are just not available.)This method allows me to be reaching for the mag while simultaneously releasing the mag catch. Using my thumb moves the point of aim too far from my target, using my weak hand and then reaching for a magazine with it takes too much time. I only say this because I see many shooters at the range using a weak hand mag release and then reaching for a mag, to me this is not an economy of motion.

Now for philosophy:
I feel that high capacity weapons have made many shooters lax and led to a "quantity over quality" mentality. Training for speed is great, but accuracy should be primary. The shooter who can "make" their target in one to three rounds is far superior to one who feels it must require a full magazine (and a magazine change) to accomplish the goal of rendering a target a non-threat. In my honest opinion the training recieved by many is very poor, only in the fact that it is quicker and easier to train a "quantity" mentality that a "quality" one.

This is why I progress everyone in train in this order, single shot rifle, revolver, then semiauto handgun. I try to instill a "every shot is your last, make it count" (the other guy might be better than you) attitude. I find it builds them into better shooters much more quickly than the "you have plenty more" attitude.

Just because you can "dump" 15 rounds out of your gun in seconds, should you? No.
I am continuously amazed by Law Enforcement encounters where dozens of round are expended by several inividual officers in just a few seconds resulting in only a few hits, and, much collateral damage. The "I shot him and he just kept coming" statements in military and civilian encounters may mean that you just missed your target.

The fellows I see at the range and shooting areas throwing rounds down range (and money) to no real effect amaze me, I really wonder if it's the video games, movies, or tv where they learn these tecniques. Probably all three.

(this is just some of it, the rest would take up too much bandwidth):s0112:
 
i keep seeing comments about accuracy trumping speed, in this thread and others, on this board lately... accuracy does NOT trump speed, in a gunfight. what good is all that accuracy going to do you when you're shot once each in the head, leg, and gut, because the gangbanger with the .380 hipoint in front of you just point-shot 12 rounds at you before you could get enough off to put him down? you might even hit him DCOM- that's no guarantee he'll go down, and, in fact, he obviously didn't go down because he continued to shoot at you.

you guys are totally failing to grasp the speed at which a gunfight unfolds- people are shot in seconds, and heart or head shots are hard. you're also NOT NOT NOT guaranteed immediate incapacitation even with DCOM or head-shot hits, but your odds of incapacitation climb with every good hit landed. therefor, the best way to put him down fastest and get shot less is to pump 3-5 rounds into his left-center chest or head really fast.

you have to have both. if you lack one or the other, you die, in a gunfight.
 
Neither of these guys had slide releases, but a couple gunfighters of more than moderate experience had much to say about accuracy over speed. Wyatt Earp and Wild Bill Hickock.

"Shooting at someone who is returning the compliment means going into action with the greatest speed of which a man's muscles are are capable, but mentally unflustered by an urge to hurry or the need for complicated nervous or muscular actions which trick shooting involves. It is an axiom among gunfighters that the man who wins a shootout is the man who takes his time." Wyatt Earp.

Just the view from my saddle.
 
Why? Because I was taught it...

Each has it's pros and cons...you should always practice being able release the slide lock one-handed, reload with your shooting hand and even practice as if one of your hands is disabled. The key to training is to flexible and open-minded. Even though I'm against Appendix IWB carry, I do recognize the pros and cons to it.



I have to laugh when I read stuff like this. I guess if my other hand has a flashlight in it I'm a "newbie"? There are many other scenarios I can drum up that would require to manipulate the slide release, but I fear it will fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes in this case). I see nothing wrong in using either the slide release or using the slide itself (by pulling back on the slide and releasing it) to reload...they both have their uses. Neither of them are "superior". One is faster, the other keeps your firing hand from having to reposition.

FYI I've never seen a slide release wear down to the point that it wouldn't lock back on an empty magazine. Not saying it couldn't happen, just never seen a worn down slide-release from "excessive use". Google has nothing on this...even The High Road has this to say about it.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-305693.html

You bring up good points especially as they relate to low light scenarios and the potential need to use the release. I will say that for me if my support hand isn't holding something other than the gun then it's job is to rack the slide especially in a malfunction scenario.
 
i keep seeing comments about accuracy trumping speed, in this thread and others, on this board lately... accuracy does NOT trump speed, in a gunfight. what good is all that accuracy going to do you when you're shot once each in the head, leg, and gut, because the gangbanger with the .380 hipoint in front of you just point-shot 12 rounds at you before you could get enough off to put him down? you might even hit him DCOM- that's no guarantee he'll go down, and, in fact, he obviously didn't go down because he continued to shoot at you.

you guys are totally failing to grasp the speed at which a gunfight unfolds- people are shot in seconds, and heart or head shots are hard. you're also NOT NOT NOT guaranteed immediate incapacitation even with DCOM or head-shot hits, but your odds of incapacitation climb with every good hit landed. therefor, the best way to put him down fastest and get shot less is to pump 3-5 rounds into his left-center chest or head really fast.

you have to have both. if you lack one or the other, you die, in a gunfight.

Balance of speed and accuracy. One isn't more important than the other when "time is life".
 
I thought I said that? Build accuracy first then work on speed, if you get faster and accuracy suffers, slow down and practice more. Every one will have a plateau, that is, where they have trained to their maximum speed/accuracy capability.

I wish people on here would stop spouting off expert opinions they heard somewhere else third hand, read in a blog, made up or misconstrued.
 
Everything in Coop's section labeled: "...Philosophy" is on the money regardless of what shooting discipline one is trying to teach or learn. I would paralell his frustration with my own when I read,

"Just got my kid his first rifle: a 10-22!!" All is lost at that point.
 
would love to hear some thoughts on this

Reaction Time and Decision Making in Sports

"Processing time is longer when there are more choices that require different actions. Delays in responses can make the difference between winning and losing. For example, if a batter is indecisive about how to handle an oncoming pitch, he or she could miss the ball completely. "

if malfunctions require a slide rack and a reload does not, what effect does the decision delay have?

I do not have horse in the race but I have heard that this is one of the factors in favor of the always rack option.
 

Upcoming Events

Tillamook Gun & Knife Show
Tillamook, OR
"The Original" Kalispell Gun Show
Kalispell, MT
Teen Rifle 1 Class
Springfield, OR
Kids Firearm Safety 2 Class
Springfield, OR

New Resource Reviews

New Classified Ads

Back Top