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I think the same way.

A 5.56 will do more damage than a 9mm.
Yet they both weigh about 2.6 pounds per 100 rounds. ;)

Some would argue they are equivalent. I don't think so.

But regardless, as the distance increases, the difference becomes greater with just about any handgun cartridge fired from a rifle, compared to most modern rifle cartridges - the trajectory, the remaining velocity and muzzle energy, increasingly favors rifle cartridges as the distance increases.

Then there is the ability to hit a target at a distance, the disparity between a handgun and a rifle cartridge becomes greater there too.

Even a 460 Magnum is pretty much a 200 yard cartridge from any rifle, where the same weight in 7.62x51 has at least 3 times the range and more energy at 500 yards than the .460 magnum does from a rifle at 200 yards.

So it really comes down the fact that there is no real weight advantage, no performance advantage. The only advantage, and a very debatable one at that, is that your "carbine" would share the same ammo as your handgun - if your handgun matched your rifle. I say it is very debatable because most people don't carry a lot of ammo for their handgun in a self-defense situation when they are also carrying a rifle - they carry most of the ammo for their rifle instead. In that situation, your handgun becomes your last ditch standoff defensive weapon before you go hand to hand, only resorting to it when your rifle is out of ammo or jammed.

To me, it makes more sense to have more rifle ammo in that situation and maybe two or three reloads for the handgun. If I have to resort to the handgun, I am probably not going to last very long with it.

Hunting is different. To me, using a handgun for hunting is for those few times when you need a lower power cartridge, or for when you don't have your rifle handy and you want to take a shot of opportunity at a closer range than you would take with your rifle.

The idea of sharing ammo in any of these situations is a fairly unique and not very probable situation.

There are exceptions - for example - rimfire firearms. I can totally see having matching handgun and rifle in that situation. But that is pretty much a horse of a different color. I personally almost always carried some kind of rimfire firearm when hunting - usually a handgun. Now that I have a one pound takedown rimfire rifle - lighter weight than most handguns - I would also carry a rifle if I were to take up hunting again. In a SHTF situation, I would most certainly have both.
 
I've often wondered why no one has made a rimless .357 mag. Sort of a .30 Carbine on steroids. Seems like it could be paired with a slightly up-sized M1 Carbine. The handiness of the M1Carbine while overcoming in large part the "under powered" complaint. Would work also in single action revolvers or DA revolvers with half moon clips.
 
I've often wondered why no one has made a rimless .357 mag. Sort of a .30 Carbine on steroids. Seems like it could be paired with a slightly up-sized M1 Carbine. The handiness of the M1Carbine while overcoming in large part the "under powered" complaint. Would work also in single action revolvers or DA revolvers with half moon clips.
I think they do.
.357 Sig, supposed to deliver 125gr bullets at same performance as a .357 Magnum from a 4" revolver...
Also see .400 Corbon and other cartridges mentioned in a few pages on this very thread already.
 
Some would argue they are equivalent. I don't think so.

But regardless, as the distance increases, the difference becomes greater with just about any handgun cartridge fired from a rifle, compared to most modern rifle cartridges - the trajectory, the remaining velocity and muzzle energy, increasingly favors rifle cartridges as the distance increases.

Then there is the ability to hit a target at a distance, the disparity between a handgun and a rifle cartridge becomes greater there too.

Even a 460 Magnum is pretty much a 200 yard cartridge from any rifle, where the same weight in 7.62x51 has at least 3 times the range and more energy at 500 yards than the .460 magnum does from a rifle at 200 yards.

So it really comes down the fact that there is no real weight advantage, no performance advantage. The only advantage, and a very debatable one at that, is that your "carbine" would share the same ammo as your handgun - if your handgun matched your rifle. I say it is very debatable because most people don't carry a lot of ammo for their handgun in a self-defense situation when they are also carrying a rifle - they carry most of the ammo for their rifle instead. In that situation, your handgun becomes your last ditch standoff defensive weapon before you go hand to hand, only resorting to it when your rifle is out of ammo or jammed.

To me, it makes more sense to have more rifle ammo in that situation and maybe two or three reloads for the handgun. If I have to resort to the handgun, I am probably not going to last very long with it.

Hunting is different. To me, using a handgun for hunting is for those few times when you need a lower power cartridge, or for when you don't have your rifle handy and you want to take a shot of opportunity at a closer range than you would take with your rifle.

The idea of sharing ammo in any of these situations is a fairly unique and not very probable situation.

There are exceptions - for example - rimfire firearms. I can totally see having matching handgun and rifle in that situation. But that is pretty much a horse of a different color. I personally almost always carried some kind of rimfire firearm when hunting - usually a handgun. Now that I have a one pound takedown rimfire rifle - lighter weight than most handguns - I would also carry a rifle if I were to take up hunting again. In a SHTF situation, I would most certainly have both.

And here is where I think you've jumped the tracks. Riflemen have to come up with pretty elaborate, and frankly, bizarre scenarios to make their "SHTF rifle" make any sense.

You keep going on about "longer range." How much longer than 200m do you need in a non end of the world scene? If you are busting caps at people 200m and beyond, when the law comes back they will probably want to have a chat if you injured or killed anyone.

I have rifles that if I were a better shot, hit out to 1000m with some steam still on the bullet. I don't view myself as ever doing anything at longer ranges with them in a brief collapse of law and order, say following an earthquake. It's entirely unrealistic.

So, I still say a PCC is still good to go, just like it was when the concept first appeared.

However, the best pistol/PCC combos today gotta not only share ammo, they gotta share mags. You don't need to have a 300 round load out to defend your house or block. There will be no zombie hordes, or multiple body armored assailants, or snipers to countersnipe in your typical anti-looting vigil. But mags keep you from having to organize loose or boxed ammo and that's worth something over wheelie/lever combos in SHTF scenes.

Currently, with a 9mm full size PX4 and a 9mm CX4 carbine, the load out on a generic duty belt rig I bought for "gearing up" works to 17+1 in the pistol in its holster, and two more 17 rounders in a double mag carrier. The CX4 starts at 20+1 in the grip and two more twenty round mags in a DeSantis Stormpacker on the butt.

Total rounds of 124 grain JHPs is 52 "pistol" and 61 "carbine" 113 rounds total. All can be used in either firearm. Don't need an ammo vest, don't need a big pouch, don't get weighed down by a bunch of stuff I probably won't even have to brandish at anyone. The CX4 still weighs in at just over 7 pounds in this form.

So, in my estimation, there is a considerable "bulk savings" in a pistol/PCC pairing and NOT too much of a power sacrifice at any reasonable self defense distance. Even at 200m you still get .380 at the muzzle power out there. Not impressive, but not non-lethal either.

Since I won't be humping all over creation ala mad max, or going to town on biker gangs like the Punisher, I'm fine with my SHTF CQB combo as is, even as I can readily change it to something more "ballsy."
 
To each their own, but I don't see much advantage to a PCC (if any), and see a number of disadvantages.

It isn't just about power at 500 yards, it is about power from the muzzle out to wherever you can hit somebody.

I don't live in an urban area. I don't even live in a rural area. I live on a mountain beyond rural areas. I have bears, cougars, coyotes and other wild animals up here, but they don't bother people.

Yes, in a SHTF situation rule of law may come back in some months to years. I am not going to be taking potshots at people coming up the road to my house just because they are coming up the road.

OTOH, if they are attacking my neighbors down the road, 500 to several thousand yards away, then I will probably want to be taking them out at whatever distance I think I can reach out to (and with one of my rifles, that is quite a distance - an order of magnitude further than any PCC could reach effectively).

On my property at my house, I can see maybe 150 yards at best before trees and brush get in the way, but at the edge of my property, there are wide open areas (cultivated fields) that allow hits out to 500 to 1000 yards and more.

Also, a handgun cartridge, even shot from a rifle, compared to a rifle cartridge, is not as lethal as a rifle cartridge. Again, if I am shooting from a given rifle, if I am paying that weight and size penalty, I want to make it worthwhile and be using the most effective cartridge from that rifle.
 
To me, the only good zombie, is a completely dead zombie, and that means at 300 yards or better. If you live in the country like I do I would want a SHTF carbine that doubles for hunting and defense. It would be nice to have both sidearm and carbine but those options if you want some distance are limited by the nature of the beast. I like the idea of a nice 10mm combo.
Recent events show the advantages of a rifle cartridge, how ever.


Brutus out
 
To me, the only good zombie, is a completely dead zombie, and that means at 300 yards or better. If you live in the country like I do I would want a SHTF carbine that doubles for hunting and defense. It would be nice to have both sidearm and carbine but those options if you want some distance are limited by the nature of the beast. I like the idea of a nice 10mm combo.
Recent events show the advantages of a rifle cartridge, how ever.


Brutus out

I tend to concur. In the sticks I'd choose differently. I happen to live in the mid-WV, in the corridor between Salem and PDX, where you only find 200m shots at the range.

In any realistic, history based SHTF in the USA, my combo will be overkill compared to what most looters around here can summon up.

And if the scum do bring more? Well, I got answers for that too, though none are as damn handy slung as the CX4 is.
 
Suppressor-ready, and will be wearing a brace soon.
It's my go-to for 0-100 feet (home defense, truck-gun).
30-round mags with Federal HST 124 grain hp's...

image.jpeg
 
That would be a nice fit with my 4 10mm Auto pistols (and my 1991 S&W Model 610). Believe me when I tell you that such a combination would be devastating on Whitetail deer at Western Oregon (woods) ranges.

Gotta love it!
 
Interesting subject.. that's been thrown around since the 44-40 days.
They say that some .357 magnum rounds out of a carbine make about the same power as a 30-30 carbine.
Personally, I'd count myself lucky to find myself with just a full-size and accurate 9mm handgun loaded with some proof load HP's would something bad happen.
 
Interesting subject.. that's been thrown around since the 44-40 days.
They say that some .357 magnum rounds out of a carbine make about the same power as a 30-30 carbine.
Personally, I'd count myself lucky to find myself with just a full-size and accurate 9mm handgun loaded with some proof load HP's would something bad happen.

A 44 Magnum is about .30-30 power out of a carbine - at the muzzle.

Farther away you get, the more disparity there is, even with the Hornady loads.

Even with the .460 Magnum I just bought, I would rather have the .30-30 - flatter trajectory.

Not that I wouldn't mind having some lever actions in .44 mag and .460 mag/etc., just that the rifle cartridges are better and higher on my list of things to have.
 
I've often wondered why no one has made a rimless .357 mag. Sort of a .30 Carbine on steroids. Seems like it could be paired with a slightly up-sized M1 Carbine. The handiness of the M1Carbine while overcoming in large part the "under powered" complaint. Would work also in single action revolvers or DA revolvers with half moon clips.
They made the .351 SL back in 1905.. but it was never offered in a handgun I'm pretty sure.
 
There was a guy who converted the M1 carbine to some kind of .45 Magnum IIRC. I don't think they are available anymore.

There are not many .30 M1 carbine chambered handguns so I don't think much of going that route either.

Plus, I've shot the M1 carbine and I don't care much for it - I would rather have an AR or AK or a bullpup.
 
The 357 Maximum is worth a look. Not many revolvers chambered for it, unfortunately, but it makes a credible rifle round. If I'm not mistaken, people do load .358 rifle bullets in it, so the poor BC problem is solved. But then those won't work in revolvers, too long? Maybe those .357 lever revolution bullets? o_O

Of course .357 Mag will work as well. How about a .357 Mag revolver, a .357 Max rifle, and carry both .357 Mag and .357 Max ammo? Partial interchangeability... :confused:

I know of a man in Hawaii that had a .30-30 action with an 18" barrel chambered in .357 Remington Maximum. His groups opened up horribly because the man was "fire walling" the cartridge.

I wondered how such an arrangement would function as a "woods-walking" setup. He took the lever action on a number of hog hunting expeditions/excursions on the "big island".
 
I agree.
Mine accepts reliable 33 round Glock 'happy sticks'.......

"Happy sticks" Are you going to copyright that phrase or can we use it freely? :D

I went for the TNW ASR carbine which of course also uses Glock magazines.

I also shoot a Marlin 1894 lever gun in .45 Colt, but since it sports a 24" octagon barrel I'm not sure that I can really call it a carbine.

E
 
To me, it kind of seems like having any kind of semi auto, repeating long arm that you could get your mitts on would put you head and shoulders above a good 85% of the population. Sure, I can picture absolute chaos in a WROL-type situation with rioting and looting and stuff, but I picture the majority of the population would be wandering about in a blind panic because their IPhones no longer work and Subway is no longer open. I can't imagine a "road warrior" kind of scenario where everyone is more or less armed with crossbows and hand axes. I picture a SHTF scenario as more of a mass confusion, and less of a small pockets of well armed brigands taking advantage of the power vacuum. Especially in the Portland area where the altruistic hipsters seem to outnumber the former military, gun owning survivors. I could be wrong though.
 
My 2cents on calibers is pretty simple,

Reliability is key, use the caliber that is most reliable based on the intricacies of your platform and your distance needed.

pistol carbines can be more reliable in shorter barrels and have no gas systems to fail, great for sub 200 yd platforms.

300blk will generally outperform 556 in its given range with shorter barrels, also great for sub. 200yd platforms.

556 will generally be preferable to pistol ballistics if the correct barrel/length is available/used. Great for nearly all distances and good ballistics with 10.5 it longer barrels. Can be finicky at shorter lengths.
 

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