National Pistol Brace rule Dropped!

[ilikegunspdx]

Is is though. It may not "seem" to make sense since "you" are "you".. acting as an individual or as a trustee (appointed by yourself), but in the eyes of the law, those are two different entities. You are "you" as an individual... transferring a firearm to a seperate entity... the trust... and "you the trustee" are simply the authorized agent of the trust entity.

The named trustee doesn't have to be you.. and if it wasn't... would it make more sense that "you" are transferring your title I to another person (acting as the authorized agent of the trust)? In the eyes of the law... it doesn't matter. "you the trustee" are not "you the individual".

Muddy enough?

The OR 2015 law's purpose is for BGC on the person. Family members are exempt from the law. The law's purpose is not to create some technicality where someone is forced to somehow do a bgc on a non-person.

Even in the case where family members are not the only ones in the trust, the 4473's purpose (as shown in post #1429, screenshot of the 4473's purpose) is for an ffl to evaluate whether they can sell to that person, and for record keeping. It's purpose is not to create a title for the firearm or to transfer ownership, it's a BGC (to see if ffl can transfer to that person) and a record of the transaction.

 

[Yarome]

The law's purpose is for BGC on the person. Family members are exempt from the law. The law's purpose is not to create some technicality where someone is forced to do a bgc on a non-person.

Even in the case where family members are not the only ones in the trust, the 4473's purpose (as shown in an above post screenshot of the 4473) is for an ffl to evaluate whether they can sell to that person, and for record keeping. It's purpose is not to create a title for the firearm or to transfer ownership, it's a BGC (to see if ffl can transfer to that person) and a record of the transaction.

You're not doing a BGC on a non-person. You are doing a BGC on the person authorized by the trust to act on it's behalf. It doesn't matter if that's "you" or... someone else named as trustee.

Name your trust "Bob" if it makes more sense. You are transferring your title I to Bob and Bob has to pass a BGC. A BGC can't be done on Bob so the law allows Bob to appoint an authorized agent. The authorized agent must pass a BGC on Bob's behalf.

I didn't say it wasn't stupid when the individual and the trustee are the same person... I just said it's what the law requires. If you already passed a BGC then it's really just an issue of making the proper paper trail on the 4473, submitting the appropriate affidavit to be attached and paying the fee.

It's not that big of a deal.

 

[wired]

Call it what you want. Believe you know what you know... I may not have worded it to absolute satisfaction, but the point remains that some states require a 4473 to make legal transfer of a title I firearm. There is no ambiguity there and there is no written law that specifically allows a firearm to be gifted or simply assigned to a legal entity. To specific associated persons... yes. A trust isn't one of them.

In the case of the WA gun guy... he's a practicing attorney. Typically, those guys are prone to presenting the laws only as they stand in black and white and not interpreting stuff like, "I doubt the alphabet cares though so you can do it anyway". Just a wild hunch.

There is a degree of ambiguity. First off let's agree that the 4473 is not a registration document. Tin foil hats aside, its not. Its a transfer document that in some states is required to affect a transfer to an individual for the purpose of checking their background and asking pertinent questions required by federal law. Individuals have backgrounds. Trusts do not have backgrounds. Corporations do not have backgrounds. Both can own firearms under state and federal laws if the RP in management of the trust meets federal standards, which in the case of the grantor/trustee has already been affirmed on a 4473.

I would also argue that it is not the job of attorneys to boil things down to their black and white base materials. The job of attorneys is to win cases for their clients. The truth or the intent of the law is seldom their concern unless it serves to win cases for their clients.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

In the register now. I wonder if anything changed vs the unpublished version. Since it says at the bottom it was signed on Jan 13 by dickhead garland, how can it be legal because what he signed (the one they released on Jan 13) is a different document. If we as a private party sign a legal document we can't just keep changing it weeks later and say it's the same as what was signed and keep the original signature date. Seems weird.

Federal Register :: Request Access

Edit: skimming it there seems to be a helluva lot of changes.

Looks like they made some changes to the defintion, but they are minor (definition is found on page 6569.

Other new stuff (I think):


I guess they forgot to proof read the document. Gotta get one of those ruger 22-October's.

 

[The Heretic]

 

[Esholalex]

So this is probably already in here somewhere but, can braces still be sold as an individual part?

 

[CamoDeafie]

So this is probably already in here somewhere but, can braces still be sold as an individual part?

Seems like it, the ATF says the sale or mere possession of the brace itself is not regulated. It's when it's attached to something with an under 16" rifle barrel, or an under 18" barreled smoothbore that its an issue they say in the FAQ and in the 293 pages of legalese that they don't "regulate accessories" (tell that to those who owned FRTs/WOTs, Glock switches, Lighting Link, that key card design,DIAS, bumpstocks, solvent traps...)

 

[Aero Denezol]

So this is probably already in here somewhere but, can braces still be sold as an individual part?

Yes, because they can still be used on rifles w/ bbl > 16". As long as the brace is not sold together with an SBR upper.

Also, as long as your application is in before May 31 you are GTG. Keep a copy of your Draft Submission. It may be an eternity before they get all of these done. There is a separate eForms portal setup for the free stamp. Should be a big red button.

The ATF put on a webinar this morning. There will be a couple more webinars today. Lots of good questions are being asked by thousands of attendees. I recommend anyone who is interested should check it out.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Yes, because they can still be used on rifles w/ bbl > 16". As long as the brace is not sold together with an SBR upper.

Also, as long as your application is in before May 31 you are GTG. Keep a copy of your Draft Submission. It may be an eternity before they get all of these done. There is a separate eForms portal setup for the free stamp. Should be a big red button.

The ATF put on a webinar this morning. There will be a couple more webinars today. Lots of good questions are being asked by thousands of attendees. I recommend anyone who is interested should check it out.

Next webinar is 11am pacific today. Here's the link

Meet virtually with Cisco Webex. Anytime, anywhere, on any device.

Simple, modern video meetings for everyone on the world's most popular and trusted collaboration platform.

atfeventscenter.webex.com

 

[PiratePast40]

Yes, because they can still be used on rifles w/ bbl > 16". As long as the brace is not sold together with an SBR upper.

Also, as long as your application is in before May 31 you are GTG. Keep a copy of your Draft Submission. It may be an eternity before they get all of these done. There is a separate eForms portal setup for the free stamp. Should be a big red button.

The ATF put on a webinar this morning. There will be a couple more webinars today. Lots of good questions are being asked by thousands of attendees. I recommend anyone who is interested should check it out.

How do we find that webinar?

 

[Aero Denezol]

@ilikegunspdx posted the link above in #1449

Also here is the ATF email address for technical questions:

[email protected]

 

[PiratePast40]

@ilikegunspdx posted the link above in #1449

Also here is the ATF email address for technical questions:

[email protected]

This is odd. Your post is 1448 and mine is 1450. There is no post 1449. Was it deleted?

 

[Member 53328]

This is odd. Your post is 1448 and mine is 1450. There is no post 1449. Was it deleted?

You may be on someone's ignore list.

 

[PiratePast40]

Childrens games. Nevermind.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I hope they go over people's Q's later cuz this part is worthless. All they are doing is reading the power point presentation verbatim. It's faster to just read that on your own. We'll see. I'm just turning down the volume for this part and turning up the volume on handgun training video.

Edit

11:19 now they are doing questions and answers.

They did say trust with title 1 firearm before jan 31 can apply (we already know that). Some other Q's:

1) q - what if previous owner already applied for form 1 for the lower?
A - previous owner needs to tell atf

2) Q - what about Komrad shotgun that came with brace?
A - it's now an sbs and no longer a "firearm" because all previous atf rulings about braces are now invalid. This rule doesn't apply to shotguns.

3) q - something about ffl what do they do (I didn't catch it)?
a- if ffl gives customer pistol and arm brace together it's an sbr (constructive possession)

4) can you give any objective measure of surface area? No, the amount of surface area for shouldering only

5) Q - currently pawned items, do I as pawnshop need to remove brace? A - Yes. Q- Can pawnshop return brace to customer? A- Don't hand them back in same transaction, that woudl be constructive possesion

6) Q - if tax stamp submitted before today are they in the que? A - yes

7) Q - can I sell pistol with brace until may 31?
A- no, take off the brace. Also tax forbearance only applies to current possessor only, not the buyer.

8) Q - what about the 88 day rule?
A - fbi is looking for better solution (ha ha ha ha). Really vague answer saying we are working on it essentially.

9) Q - what is min length of pull to make it rifle?
A - we won't tell you (ie nebulus answer repeating vague language in the rule, we will look at other rifles... etc)

10) Q - how does rule affect aow?
A - if it meets new rule, it needs to be reclassified

11) Q - AR with only buffer tube is it an sbr?
A - if buffer tube only and needed for function then ok. But he didn't go into surface area or adjustable buffer tube both of which are stated in the rule.

12) Q - I have many Glocks, have one micro-roni, do i submit all Glocks on form 1
A - only 1 Glock needs registered (answer sounded strange to me fwiw. I don't think they understood question I think maybe he was asking if it can be used on all the Glocks).

13) q - will tax be charged in future?
A - we are not collecting tax in future

14) q - pistol tube with foam sleeve ok?
A - some are ok, cheek fire is ok, (sort of). responder was pretty nebulous on this

15) q - manufacturers mark required?
A - you do not have to mark the firearm, no additional markings

16) q - is it illegal to possess brace and firearm? (Not sure on this question maybe someone else can clarify)
A - no, but if side by side then it's constructive possesion

17) efile website is crap, how fix it and when?
A - we are testing and updating - ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

18) q - pawn shop, ( I'm not sure of question)? A - current possessors are responsible to get it within rule so if it's in pawn shop cannot return to customer as an sbr

19) q- do you have any examples of pistols with Braces that are not sbr?
A - Only if they lack surface area for shouldering

20) q - paper or eforms? A - Either is ok

21) q - re manufacturer for trust what do we put in form 1?
A - use markings on firearm for maker, not name of trust or your name

22) q - atf said brace should be permanently removed, do have to destroy brace?
A - no, don't store the firearm and the brace in the same drawer or it will be an sbr

23) q - re shockwaves etc with braces
A - we rescinded any classification for shockwaves etc with brace, it's now an sbs

24) q - can ffl sell micro Ronnie's?
A - yes

25) q - I have muktiple braces can register all?
A - yes, only with the firearm it's equipped to, you state under penalty of perjury on application

26) q - after registration can I change to stock?
A - yes

27) q - how long for stamp?
A - didn't answer, said depends on how many submissions there are (ie until the next ice age)

28) q - some ffl selling parts question i didn't catch it all
A - you can sell parts, but can't aide and abet building an sbr

29) q - is keltec cp33 ok (has small receiver protrusion out the back built in)
A - yea if no brace

30) q - can ffl help customer fill out form 1?
A - yes can assist, but can't do it for them

31) q - ffl and gun range, what if person brings in braced gun?
A - no responsibility for range

32) q - if I have receiver with brace and no barrel can I submit under tax foreberance/rule?
A - not eligible, not a rifle

33) q - can I pin and weld silencer to meet 16"?
A - yes

34) q -if reciever says multi do we need to engrave the caliber on firearm?
A - ATF must have a caliber, list as 223, but in notes list as multiple caliber. You do not need to engrave further.

35) q - some ca single shot round buffer tube crap I didn't pay attention to cuz I hate CA ridiculous laws
A - can't do form 1 if puts in violation of [communist socialist anti gun California mao se tung wipe out the educated dumb em down so they are no threat to the government] state gun law. - oh wait, I may have embellished a bit on that one...

36) q - homemade and unmarked, how register?
A - you would have to mark it

37) q - I'm gunsmith/ceracoater, what if customer brings in braced firearm is it ok?
A - allowed, customer responsible for it meeting law

38) q - how do we weigh it?
A - didn't answer, some wish washy "if similar to rifle" bs

39) q - what if customer brings braced gun into store (Not sure if this was for pawn, ffl, or other)?
A - don't take possession of it

40) q - what if disabled, any exemption?
A - no exemption

41) q - can a trust submit form 1
A - yes, trust is only person that can if trust owns gun. Must be possessed by Jan 31 and show evidence of that, typically schedule A

42) q - can ffl send braced pistol in inventory back to manufacturer?
A - no, possession is key, can't transfer in current configuration, some manufacturers will take it back if brace removed

43) Q - military deployed overseas so can't do form 1
A - do form 1 overseas on internet or remove brace when you get home

Key things for me were:

Possession - whoever possesses it now is responsible. They did distinguish that people like gun ranges and gunsmiths are not responsible but individuals, pawn shops, ffls, etc that take into inventory are (as I understand it).

Constructive possession - if you have gun and brace together in same drawer or whatever but they are not attached, or if selling brace in one hand and firearm in another, that is constructive possession. Must be separate transactions. Must be stored separately.

 

[FireArm]

In the register now. I wonder if anything changed vs the unpublished version. Since it says at the bottom it was signed on Jan 13 by dickhead garland, how can it be legal because what he signed (the one they released on Jan 13) is a different document. If we as a private party sign a legal document we can't just keep changing it weeks later and say it's the same as what was signed and keep the original signature date. Seems weird.

Federal Register :: Request Access

Edit: skimming it there seems to be a helluva lot of changes.

Looks like they made some changes to the defintion, but they are minor (definition is found on page 6569.
View attachment 1356686
Other new stuff (I think):
View attachment 1356679 View attachment 1356680 View attachment 1356681 View attachment 1356682 View attachment 1356683 View attachment 1356684 View attachment 1356685

I guess they forgot to proof read the document. Gotta get one of those ruger 22-October's.
View attachment 1356688

my first name is Garland.... I feel attacked.

 

[Flymph]

Wait wait wait...
I think I misread something, the tax exemption only applies to completed firearms with attached stabilizing braces... so I can't register a stripped lower receiver under tax exemption, but I can if I pay the tax?

Like, tax exemption only applies to completed firearms, and 922r compliance is dismissed for the forbearance/amnesty period?

 

[bellarum]

Sen. Kennedy moves to repeal Biden admin's pistol brace rule: 'Assault on the Second Amendment' — Fox News

Republican Louisiana Sen. John Kennedy will take action to counter the Biden administration's new rule tightening regulations on pistol stabilizing braces, which took affect this week.

apple.news

 

[BluesReds]

15) q - manufacturers mark?
A - you do not have to mark the firearm, no additional markings

21) q manufacturer for trust
A use markings on firearm for maker not name of trust or your name

First of all, thanks for taking notes. Second, it sounds like no form 1 engraving needs to be done then to the registered SBRs?

 

[PiratePast40]

Wait wait wait...
I think I misread something, the tax exemption only applies to completed firearms with attached stabilizing braces... so I can't register a stripped lower receiver under tax exemption, but I can if I pay the tax?

Like, tax exemption only applies to completed firearms, and 922r compliance is dismissed for the forbearance/amnesty period?

The Form 1 process was always set up as permission to build something. The new ruling is for something that already exists. They are not exempting future builds from the tax.