JavaScript is disabled
Our website requires JavaScript to function properly. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser settings before proceeding.
There's enough similarity between what Hitler did and what Stalin did. But to say that socialism always leads to the Gulag is like saying that being a Unitarian or Quaker leads directly to torturing people on the rack in a Spanish Inquisition. Human thought, religion and ideology is always imperfect, and history shows that an extreme or fundamentalist position usually leads to the dead bodies piling up - whether it's fascism, marxism-leninism, or free market fundamentalism.
The socialized Norwegian energy industry was what I have in mind. No gulags or torture in Norway (unless you consider eating ludefisk cruel and unusual).They do deep water drilling in extreme environments, but have the world's strictest safety standards, unlike the cowboy crony-capitalist oil industry of the USA .

So were do they get their money and how do they make their money?

What are you doing here if you like their system so well? Do they allow private gun ownership?

Oh and would you agree that of all the "ism" that have killed people that socialism and communism have murdered the most?

jj
 
LOL It's obviouse you don't understand where socialism leads. Watch the movie Schindlers List and discover the truth. There is no money produced in socialism and that is why in the long run it fails but not until the socialist have spent all the money and driven the world to war.

If capitalism fails then where do socialist get their money? Yep, their money is your money so keep watching as they steal yours.

jj

Actually socialism doesn't get rid of currency communism does. Also considering that Schindler's List was about Nazis not Socialists I think that One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich would be a better comparison.

The majority of oil exporting countries have nationalized their oil production. Brazil, Venezuela, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, India, Nigeria, Canada (to a smaller extent) and many others. As oil gets more and more expensive I think we'll see more and more countries going that route (for better or worse).

BTW I love Godwin's law.
 
:s0112::s0112::s0112: Do you have a favorite American gun? If so was it socialism or capitalism that made it? If it's an import gun was it socialism or capitalism that imported it? How much oil did it take to get your gun to you?

jj

My M4gery wouldn't be around without the intense relationship between the US government and Colt. In this case, the expenses are socialized but the profits are privatized. Doesn't seem like a particularly good business deal for us taxpayers.
 
Welcome to the forum Dirtybird.:s0155:

Your reply indicates an ability to think for yourself. I ordered "The Prize" as posted earlier and look forward to more suggested readings...from those of you that do.:s0131:

As much as I usually disagree with JJ...I'll listen to all opinions. His however, generally devolve into slinging conservative political tantrums. The topic of this thread goes beyond red/blue/conservative/liberal affiliations...we're all in this together. Oil supplies don't give a rats butt at a rolling doughnut.

Getting ready for the upcoming shortages will require localizing our lifestyles and reducing our dependance on tomatoes and such that are trucked in from thousands of miles away. Those of you that live in smaller towns surrounded by rural agricultural areas will fare better than those of us in the larger cities.

Get your seeds and start a garden.

Will

P.S. :s0112::s0112::s0112:It's all good Jim!:s0112::s0112::s0112:
 
My M4gery wouldn't be around without the intense relationship between the US government and Colt. In this case, the expenses are socialized but the profits are privatized. Doesn't seem like a particularly good business deal for us taxpayers.

Actually you can thank Armalite (Eugene Stoner) for the original design and Colt for the improvements of the M4. Both companies did it for a paycheck and comepeted against other companies for the contract. While the original develpment was a private companies expense the payout for the contract was made by tax dollars. If it were not for capitalism you wouldn't have your gun and if it were not for oil you couldn't afford to buy it.

Socialism needs capitalism for the tax money. Capitalist need energy to make money for the socialist to steal.

jj
 
Actually socialism doesn't get rid of currency communism does. Also considering that Schindler's List was about Nazis not Socialists I think that One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich would be a better comparison.

The majority of oil exporting countries have nationalized their oil production. Brazil, Venezuela, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, India, Nigeria, Canada (to a smaller extent) and many others. As oil gets more and more expensive I think we'll see more and more countries going that route (for better or worse).

BTW I love Godwin's law.

The Nazi socialist party run Germany in WWII, work on your facts a bit LOL

jj
 
Welcome to the forum Dirtybird.:s0155:

Your reply indicates an ability to think for yourself. I ordered "The Prize" as posted earlier and look forward to more suggested readings...from those of you that do.:s0131:

As much as I usually disagree with JJ...I'll listen to all opinions. His however, generally devolve into slinging conservative political tantrums. The topic of this thread goes beyond red/blue/conservative/liberal affiliations...we're all in this together. Oil supplies don't give a rats butt at a rolling doughnut.

Getting ready for the upcoming shortages will require localizing our lifestyles and reducing our dependance on tomatoes and such that are trucked in from thousands of miles away. Those of you that live in smaller towns surrounded by rural agricultural areas will fare better than those of us in the larger cities.

Get your seeds and start a garden.

Will

P.S. :s0112::s0112::s0112:It's all good Jim!:s0112::s0112::s0112:

:s0114::s0114: It wasn't conservatism that got us into to this mess but I am happy that it's obvious I am a conservative.

So lets look at oil and what socialist will do about it and what conservatives will do about it. Obama is a socialist and what has he done about oil?

If shortages do come about and you are forced to have a garden will the socialist take part of the crop to feed the cities? I think only if you live close to the city would they steal your crop.

jj
 
:s0114::s0114: It wasn't conservatism that got us into to this mess but I am happy that it's obvious I am a conservative.

So lets look at oil and what socialist will do about it and what conservatives will do about it. Obama is a socialist and what has he done about oil?

If shortages do come about and you are forced to have a garden will the socialist take part of the crop to feed the cities? I think only if you live close to the city would they steal your crop.

jj

Jim, I believe that cooperation with your townfolk, friends and neighbors to grow food will not necessarily constitute socialism or for that matter capitalism.

We will enter a phase where survival will include getting along locally. The paradigms of larger societies will no longer apply.

Will
 
It would be interesting to see what types of gardening projects people are involved in. With just-in-time delivery as the prevailing way to stock food stores, even momentary disruptions in fuel/transport can lead to hunger. A couple of years ago, when snow closed I5 between Portland and Seattle, the shelves of the local Trader Joe's were suddenly bare. In my neighborhood, a local apartment complex is designing a community garden for residents and neighbors. We're on the waiting list.
 
The Nazi socialist party run Germany in WWII, work on your facts a bit LOL

jj

Having met, worked side by side with and drank with more than a few ex-Nazis and Nazi youths, I'd suggest you look at this thought again JJ. Unless the LOL means that you are only joking of course:) The Nazi's were closer to George Bush in ideology than Chairman Mao. Big business conservatives all the way. Good book to read although way too long but which will confirm this: "The Arms Of Krupp" Amazon.com: The Arms of Krupp (9780553259926): William Manchester: Books

Don't mean to shift gears and drive the thread off the road. 1 more point to Jaime6.5. Please I meant no offense in my last post, sorry you took it that way. A point on the 20% natural gas usage increase....are you suggesting that the government force this through socialism style development and doing it themselves or via some new law? Because there are no regulations against private enterprise doing it now and none of them are stepping up to make it happen.

Last week I bet my brother an ounce of gold that gas will, at some point between now and the end of 2012, be over $5.00 a gallon. I'm pretty comfortable with that bet. Yet it is really the next 10 year period that is shaping up to be problematical for our country. It isn't so much just our out of control usage I'd be concerned with, it's truly a global market. If they fart in India it smells in California. A recent trip to China really shocked me and opened my eyes to auto growth/petroleum usage over there...man, those people are car crazy. They all seemed to have parked their bikes and jumped in cars. There's more bikes being commuted in Portland than Beijing on a per capita basis I'd guess. I read recently about a multi-day 7 mile traffic jam. I can believe it.

Regards to all, and welcome to NWFA Dirty bird!
 
Having met, worked side by side with and drank with more than a few ex-Nazis and Nazi youths, I'd suggest you look at this thought again JJ. Unless the LOL means that you are only joking of course:) The Nazi's were closer to George Bush in ideology than Chairman Mao. Big business conservatives all the way. Good book to read although way too long but which will confirm this: "The Arms Of Krupp" Amazon.com: The Arms of Krupp (9780553259926): William Manchester: Books

Don't mean to shift gears and drive the thread off the road. 1 more point to Jaime6.5. Please I meant no offense in my last post, sorry you took it that way. A point on the 20% natural gas usage increase....are you suggesting that the government force this through socialism style development and doing it themselves or via some new law? Because there are no regulations against private enterprise doing it now and none of them are stepping up to make it happen.

Last week I bet my brother an ounce of gold that gas will, at some point between now and the end of 2012, be over $5.00 a gallon. I'm pretty comfortable with that bet. Yet it is really the next 10 year period that is shaping up to be problematical for our country. It isn't so much just our out of control usage I'd be concerned with, it's truly a global market. If they fart in India it smells in California. A recent trip to China really shocked me and opened my eyes to auto growth/petroleum usage over there...man, those people are car crazy. They all seemed to have parked their bikes and jumped in cars. There's more bikes being commuted in Portland than Beijing on a per capita basis I'd guess. I read recently about a multi-day 7 mile traffic jam. I can believe it.

Regards to all, and welcome to NWFA Dirty bird!

Are you defending the Nazis or blameing Bush again? Anyone with common sense can read and understand the Nazis were the nazi socialist party. The only reason to say they were not is to hide what the socialist really stand for. The Nazis socialist joined the commies to take over the world. Are you saying the commies would side with Republicans before they would side with Nazi socialist.

Myself I would never knowingly drink with a Nazi or a Commie after all the murders they commited. It's obviouse you and I have different "social" standards :s0114::s0114: However the socialist now control the world and you shall see if you stood behind the right team. Let's see how far this going without oil takes us under the socialist.

jj
 
Jim, I believe that cooperation with your townfolk, friends and neighbors to grow food will not necessarily constitute socialism or for that matter capitalism.

We will enter a phase where survival will include getting along locally. The paradigms of larger societies will no longer apply.

Will

:s0112::s0112::s0112: Does that mean I have to call you "Comrade"?

jj
 
Are you defending the Nazis or blameing Bush again? Anyone with common sense can read and understand the Nazis were the nazi socialist party. The only reason to say they were not is to hide what the socialist really stand for. The Nazis socialist joined the commies to take over the world. Are you saying the commies would side with Republicans before they would side with Nazi socialist.

Myself I would never knowingly drink with a Nazi or a Commie after all the murders they commited. It's obviouse you and I have different "social" standards :s0114::s0114: However the socialist now control the world and you shall see if you stood behind the right team. Let's see how far this going without oil takes us under the socialist.

jj

Uh, actually the commies did side with the Republicans (Dwight Eisenhower) and Democrats (Franklin Roosevelt) to defeat the nazis in WW2.
 
Uh, actually the commies did side with the Republicans (Dwight Eisenhower) and Democrats (Franklin Roosevelt) to defeat the nazis in WW2.
It was socialist Roosevelt they sided with when the Nazi socialist stabbed them in the back. Eisenhower wasn't president till the fifties and his cold war stance was against the socialist. You guys need to quit making up history, I know you are embarassed about what the socialist have done to the world but cripe Ike was a general being told what to do by a socialist president... Heck just the Chinese commies alone killed 78 million people, socialism at it's best

So what do you see for oil in our future since your socialist president is running the show?



jj
 
as long as there are rich there will be poor same with oil same with everything else the gaps just getting bigger than in the past

as far as the green movement goes how about you drink some lovely polluted water or eat shellfish swimming in mercury. its not natural its not safe and its not normal. we are the only animals yes we are animals that can change our enviroment around us to the degree that makes it unfit for other species to live in. if you belive in god then you believe that this place we call home was a gift i think god would be a bit happier if you were more responsible with it.
 
1 more point to Jaime6.5. Please I meant no offense in my last post, sorry you took it that way. A point on the 20% natural gas usage increase....are you suggesting that the government force this through socialism style development and doing it themselves or via some new law? Because there are no regulations against private enterprise doing it now and none of them are stepping up to make it happen.
You must have missed the last two major battles here in Oregon over natural gas facilities/infrastructure.
One over the port to land LNG ships in the Columbia.
One over the CNG pipeline.
The greenies/preservationist hollered the loudest.

It isn't always the regulations against the product or the infrastructure that do the most damage. It is often just the lawsuits from enviro organizations and the cost of repeated, huge environmental impact statements that drive the projects away.

Now if those that vote democrat had the sense to see the benefit of using NG instead of oil,...
And if we had a governor that insisted Oregonians be able to use a significant portion of the gas these facilities provide,...
If nuisance lawsuit/TORT reform was seriously considered,...
And was willing to set aside a few of the overbearing regulations regarding scenic right-of-ways etc, for the benefit of ALL of the people of the state, country etc...

We might be able to utilize it. The State runs vehicles run on it. They have high volume-high pressure pumps at the motor pool yard in Salem.

The trucking industry suppliers are looking hard at it, for cost and other reasons. The first being that engines that run on CNG last a loooonnng time, due to almost zero hard carbon left behind.

Honda currently sells a car that runs on it, and has a system that can be installed in your garage to fill the tank. It is a low volume system though, that fills the tank overnight. 25 CMPG, 36HMPG, and rated as the "cleanest car on earth." Yes it "only" goes 220 miles on a tank. Which happens to be 4 times farther than a Chevy volt. Perfect for the commuter. There's the 20%.
But you know what? You can't buy it anywhere in the "green" states of OR/WA. They will only sell it to states/counties/municipalities. Unless you live in NY, CA, OK or UT.

Which is fine with the greenies, because as long as the state and federal governments don't have the political will to tell their pop-culture, "green" minded voters that "the long snouted, spotted tailed runty-cat needs to step aside, we have a country to run and people need to feed themselves," we will have this problem.

National interest/security dictates that some regulations are side stepped, and some legal immunities instituted every year. We could do that with NG infrastructure, and let the companies that build and operate these things expand, free from legal harassment and stifling green regulations.
In this instance the benefit would be huge in terms of economics, air quality, oil usage etc.
But there are a couple of problems.

A: It perpetuates the independence of the American driver, keeping him/her off of mass transit. Which is the socialist's answer to all transportation issues.

B: The same people that are the #1 target of the greenie's ire, the oil companies, are the suppliers of NG at the source.


There is no single entity more demonized in pop-green culture than the oil companies. Many here are proof of that.
And the media plays on it, candidates make it part of their platform, whole political parties sway votes with it.
Look back at this thread and realize that this true statement (and my response to it) by JustJim launched much of this debate:
Look around you and realize your entire standard of living is due to oil. jj
In reality, there is no debate. Jim's statement is 100% true, and will be for years, and maybe decades, to come.
Until the realists among this country's leadership are given a voice, and truths like the one Jim spoke are embraced, we will stumble.
If allowed to stumble long enough, we will fall. Playing a green fiddle while the country goes down in flames.
I have been an advocate for CNG as a motor fuel for almost 35 years. During the last presidential election cycle one candidate brought it up, expounded on it's benefits and the FACT that we have more BTUs of NG reserves than the rest of the world has in oil.
This candidate even initiated/oversaw negotiations for a deal to run a NG pipeline through a foreign country.
And we all saw what pop-culture, their icons, and the mainstream media did to discredit this candidate.

They're still laughing, and demonizing amongst themselves. But yet their minions watch their standard of living drop to a fraction of that their grandfathers enjoyed.
Yet all the while they keep swallowing the kool-aide from servers that tell them they are smarter and better off than ever,... Because they get to watch American Idol on their "smart" phone.
 
.....
One observation about private industry: What they're good at is maximizing revenue under the current set of circumstances. As an example - every kind of bank got into subprimes and those slice and dice mortgage-backed securities as quick as they could. 'cause the money was cheap and easy. What they're not particularly good at is looking for the next way to make a bunch of money. As an example - when the housing market crashed, many of those banks got caught with their pants down and failed.

So, what private industry's response to peak oil will be is a bunch of desperate flailing around and requests/demands for government bailouts. I'm basing that on private industry's responses to past crises. Put another way, I don't have any confidence in private industry's ability to weather this coming crisis. They'll just want a bunch of tax money for jets and bonuses.

...

Very poor example as banking isn't really a industry (no products, only a service... sort of). Even worse is you bash private industry but it was government owned Fannie/Freddy Mac that screwed us in your example given. :s0114:
 

Upcoming Events

Oregon Arms Collectors March Gun Show
Portland, OR
Tillamook Gun & Knife Show
Tillamook, OR
"The Original" Kalispell Gun Show
Kalispell, MT
Teen Rifle 1 Class
Springfield, OR
Kids Firearm Safety 2 Class
Springfield, OR

New Resource Reviews

New Classified Ads

Back Top