Paper Patched Bullets

[Crohnos01]

Any of you guys done any playing around with reloading the PP rounds? I just finished reading "The Paper Jacket" by Paul Matthews and I am intrigued to try my hand at this. I have a new (to me) 45-70 single shot Sharps that I am thinking I could load up and pretend I am an old buffalo hunter from the 1880's

Anyway, the process looks interesting and at least at first I think I would load up with smokeless loads just because I don't believe in changing too many variables at the same time. Later I might give a try with some BP loads.

Anyone have advice that have "been there, done that" type thing?

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[Throckmorton]

the cast booits site has a section devoted to 'patching'. If yo're not a member, it is a terrific site.

 

[Crohnos01]

the cast booits site has a section devoted to 'patching'. If yo're not a member, it is a terrific site.

Thanks, I am not a member there, (I seem to haunt this place a LOT), but I will check it out

 

[jordanka16]

I have only done PP with black powder, my particular rifle (1884 springfield) seems to like grease groove bullets more so I stopped.

To get cheaper bullets I used a standard grease groove mold and sized the bullets down progressively. Normally for smokeless you would patch to groove diameter and for black you patch to bore. You can patch to groove with black as well, you just have to seat the bullets deep like you would a normal GG bullet.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Thanks, I am not a member there, (I seem to haunt this place a LOT), but I will check it out

Yea, that's the place to go.. especially for the not too common stuff. It's not hard to do, just takes a little time and care.

 

[StG58]

Paper jackets are great. The 45-70 is a good place to start. It takes some time and effort to get it figured out for a specific rifle, but the results are exemplary. Better accuracy and higher velocities are achievable. I've patched for 308, 8mm, and 458 Win Mag. I cut the group sizes in half from the factory target on the 458. +200 - +300 fps gain in velocity over the high end book loads for the 458 as well. Bottom line, it works, and works well.

 

[Crohnos01]

Great, thanks! I kind of enjoy the dinking around to get the desired results. Weird I know.

What did you find was the best paper ti use, might I ask?

 

[StG58]

Great, thanks! I kind of enjoy the dinking around to get the desired results. Weird I know.

What did you find was the best paper ti use, might I ask?

100% cotton vellum. The paper has to be very tough and thick for the velocities and throat size on the 458. The throats on those things are monstrous. A lot of people use green bar printer paper to good effect. Two tips that I don't think Matthews mentioned, size about a half a thousand the over bore diameter, and patch up to throat diameter.

 

[Crohnos01]

Is there someplace locally to buy the vellum? Will tracing paper work?

 

[StG58]

Is there someplace locally to buy the vellum? Will tracing paper work?

You can get vellum at art supply and office supply stores. Tracing paper works, depending. Take a micrometer with you. Bore diameter + 4 times paper thickness = groove diameter is a pretty good place to start.

 

[Crohnos01]

Thanks!

Maybe I should ask to PM you with other questions as I get into this further. I am waiting on my mould to show up right now. Do you run your cast bullets through a sizer? Matthews seems pretty strong on sizers and I don't currently have one.

 

[Spitpatch]

I have no experience in paper patching.

I have read extensively on it. I own multiple rifles (Shilos and originals) that would lend themselves to this practice should I choose to go that route. I have found it not necessary for exemplary accuracy in each gun. Having said this, I am still intrigued by the concept and will probably experiment at some date in the future.

Resources for me toward all this have included the fine work you mentioned by Matthews (in addition to his other works). Extremely helpful as well have been works my Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe (more recent than the Matthews books and they give him great credit). These two boys are giants in the Blackpowder Cartridge Rifle world, and they deal in practicalities (what actually works for them) without exception. They give paper patching its due, but tellingly do not regularly employ the technique in competition.

Also, do not miss the great resource that is the ASSRA (American Single Shot Rifle Assn) website. Honestly profess your ignorance (as I have), and the guys there will take you into the fold and eliminate your ignorance gently.

 

[Spitpatch]

As to your intention to stick with smokeless powder for now, that is a good idea with a partnership toward jacketed bullets, and that is an easy route to some success where accuracy is concerned (given that your Sharps is a modern replica, not an original). I was there with my first Shiloh as well.

However: you seem to be an intrepid soul (evidenced by the fascination with paper-patching), and with your intent to cast your own bullets (and pursuit of paper patching) I would STRONGLY recommend going to the real deal (blackpowder). I found new accuracy and satisfaction when I made that decision. Your romantic notion of the 1880's is admirable, and so why not fulfill it?

I wonder how you came to decide on a mould: I have a friend who casts with great experience, but I will admit I am a klutz when he tries to school me. Perhaps with practice, I can achieve some level of skill. Currently, as all my black powder cartridge interest is directed to hunting, I order my bullets pre-cast and lubed (usually from Buffalo Arms). Not in competition, my usage costs are not prohibitive.

This strategy also grants me the ability to experiment with bullet weights, styles, alloys and such, without the outlay toward a mould that my gun may not like. Eventually I will decide which works the very best for each gun and perhaps purchase a mould to duplicate what I discovered.

Till that time, I am having some fun I never thought possible.



Pronghorn buck taken at 110yards. Shiloh Sharps Farmingdale Rifle, Caliber 40-50 Sharps Bottleneck. 400gr bullet, 1186fps muzzle velocity.

 

[StG58]

Thanks!

Maybe I should ask to PM you with other questions as I get into this further. I am waiting on my mould to show up right now. Do you run your cast bullets through a sizer? Matthews seems pretty strong on sizers and I don't currently have one.

Nah, let's leave the discussion out here for everyone. If you don't mind.

I do size my bullets. For paper patching, I use a Lee style push through sizer. If you have access to a drill press, you can make your own out of 7/8" grade 8 bolts. Not perfect, but they work just fine. There are also several people who will make a custom sizer for you.

 

[StG58]

@Spitpatch, the Holy Black is right up there with Saint John Moses Browning. The mechanics of black powder paper patching are very simular to smokeless paper patching, but smokeless takes a slightly different technique. The discharge impulse (pressure curve) is distinctly different. I only paper patch regularly for my 458. (Once I figured out I didn't need all that velocity for cast to work properly. ) Straight up cast bullets work wonders in a 45-70. And in 8mm, and 308 and... It gets addictive, and you end up looking for bullet molds when you start looking at a firearm. Surprisingly, even my StG58 likes cast bullets. I did end up scrubbing a LOT of lead from the barrel and gas system getting that one happy though. Thank the maker for an adjustable gas system!

 

[Spitpatch]

"Smokeless powder is just another passing fad."

Steve Garbe

 

[Crohnos01]

As to your intention to stick with smokeless powder for now, that is a good idea with a partnership toward jacketed bullets, and that is an easy route to some success where accuracy is concerned (given that your Sharps is a modern replica, not an original). I was there with my first Shiloh as well.

However: you seem to be an intrepid soul (evidenced by the fascination with paper-patching), and with your intent to cast your own bullets (and pursuit of paper patching) I would STRONGLY recommend going to the real deal (blackpowder). I found new accuracy and satisfaction when I made that decision. Your romantic notion of the 1880's is admirable, and so why not fulfill it?

I wonder how you came to decide on a mould: I have a friend who casts with great experience, but I will admit I am a klutz when he tries to school me. Perhaps with practice, I can achieve some level of skill. Currently, as all my black powder cartridge interest is directed to hunting, I order my bullets pre-cast and lubed (usually from Buffalo Arms). Not in competition, my usage costs are not prohibitive.

This strategy also grants me the ability to experiment with bullet weights, styles, alloys and such, without the outlay toward a mould that my gun may not like. Eventually I will decide which works the very best for each gun and perhaps purchase a mould to duplicate what I discovered.

Till that time, I am having some fun I never thought possible.

View attachment 456478

Pronghorn buck taken at 110yards. Shiloh Sharps Farmingdale Rifle, Caliber 40-50 Sharps Bottleneck. 400gr bullet, 1186fps muzzle velocity.

That is awesome @Spitpatch ! You have accomplished exactly where I want to go. I have a hunt coming up in Wyoming in October and my intent is to take a Pronghorn with my 45-70 Pedersoli Sharps! Nice photo! I LIKE IT!

I hear you; black powder is probably where I need to go, but I thought changing too many variables in the equation at the same time might complicate things that would lead to frustration. I tend to try to eat the elephant one bite at a time So, since you have made the leap to BP (and I am TOTALLY behind you on that by the way... yeah, I may have to go find a leather jacket with fringe to wear in Wyoming to complete my fantasy ), I am wondering how much difficulty you have had with the buildup in the bore from running BP? I haven't done a lot of BP shooting, although I have a couple of muzzleloaders (don't tell @AndyinEverson though as I have given him a bad time from time to time about shooting BP). Did you find the build up to be something you needed to deal with between shots while hunting? That seems rather impractical and that was my take-away from Matthew's book that you really kind of needed to run a swab or two down the bore between shots?

I decided to try the mould and casting based on my familiarity with casting lead from my days gone by as a plumber. I figured that I could probably pick up the technique for casting without too much difficulty; but that may remain to be seen... still don't have to mould.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Boy did I miss this one! I do quite a bit in the B.P. world, and for many arms, its the only way to go, and I didn't find the learning curve to be all that bad! As Andy can tell you, its all about powder consistency, I.E, getting the same burn rate and then working out the best set ups for your rifle ( or any arm) and going from there! I always recommend getting a can of Goex or Hodgdons triple 7 and start out with your favorite loading resource and work your way up, you will find it quite satisfying and get good and hooked as you see how much better your Weapon responds to this wondrous powder.
This is what I shoot the most, and get excellent results from!

 

[Spitpatch]

Dealing with BP residue in the bore is definitely one of those things where there are almost as many strategies as there are shooters. So much so, that competition results are published listing the particular technique utilized by each shooter on the roster: "wipe after each shot", "blow tube every second shot", "wipe with water", "wipe with 409", etc. etc.

What works for me is blow tube after every shot, and I wipe with T/C bore butter/then dry patch after every 10-12 shots when on the bench. If you are attentive, your gun will tell you when the charcoal in the barrel is starting to interfere with accuracy. Often the drop-off is dramatic. The blow tube is essential, and this keeps you going for quite a while. My guns don't seem to like sending bullets down a freshly clean bore, as the chronograph and the target tell me that things don't settle down until after the second or third shot.

As for hunting, I keep the above in mind, and I hunt with a barrel that has been fired at least twice since clean. I get nervous leaving a fired barrel uncared for longer than a couple days, and so will clean it thoroughly in camp after hunting 2-3 days, then shoot it twice and go back to hunting for another 2-3 days.

Wiping and cleaning solutions are just as varied as methods. Formula 409 eats blackpowder residue for breakfast. Others swear by Vinegar-based Windex. T/C bore butter (which is what I had on hand from my frontloaders) is pretty good stuff for the final swipes before putting the gun away, or to keep going on the bench. They claim it "seasons" the bore like a good ol' cast iron fry pan, and I'm starting to believe it. I do carry my blow tube in the pack while hunting. I normally do not concern myself with swiping until at camp. (After all, a day where you shoot more than once with these guns is a pretty exceptional day!)

For all guns (BP or otherwise) subject to a rough hunt, exterior protection is provided perfectly by Johnson Past Wax (Minwax offers a similar product) in the squat yellow can. Apply to all exterior (wood and metal without discrimination), allow to dry to haze, buff off. Or, if appearances are to take second fiddle to absolute protection (heavy rain hunt/Alaska, etc.) leave it on the gun foggy and streaky. BP guns get an extra treatment around the breech block/hammer area where BP residues can deposit. A very effective barrier.

 

[Crohnos01]

Dealing with BP residue in the bore is definitely one of those things where there are almost as many strategies as there are shooters. So much so, that competition results are published listing the particular technique utilized by each shooter on the roster: "wipe after each shot", "blow tube every second shot", "wipe with water", "wipe with 409", etc. etc.

What works for me is blow tube after every shot, and I wipe with T/C bore butter/then dry patch after every 10-12 shots when on the bench. If you are attentive, your gun will tell you when the charcoal in the barrel is starting to interfere with accuracy. Often the drop-off is dramatic. The blow tube is essential, and this keeps you going for quite a while. My guns don't seem to like sending bullets down a freshly clean bore, as the chronograph and the target tell me that things don't settle down until after the second or third shot.

As for hunting, I keep the above in mind, and I hunt with a barrel that has been fired at least twice since clean. I get nervous leaving a fired barrel uncared for longer than a couple days, and so will clean it thoroughly in camp after hunting 2-3 days, then shoot it twice and go back to hunting for another 2-3 days.

Wiping and cleaning solutions are just as varied as methods. Formula 409 eats blackpowder residue for breakfast. Others swear by Vinegar-based Windex. T/C bore butter (which is what I had on hand from my frontloaders) is pretty good stuff for the final swipes before putting the gun away, or to keep going on the bench. They claim it "seasons" the bore like a good ol' cast iron fry pan, and I'm starting to believe it. I do carry my blow tube in the pack while hunting. I normally do not concern myself with swiping until at camp. (After all, a day where you shoot more than once with these guns is a pretty exceptional day!)

For all guns (BP or otherwise) subject to a rough hunt, exterior protection is provided perfectly by Johnson Past Wax (Minwax offers a similar product) in the squat yellow can. Apply to all exterior (wood and metal without discrimination), allow to dry to haze, buff off. Or, if appearances are to take second fiddle to absolute protection (heavy rain hunt/Alaska, etc.) leave it on the gun foggy and streaky. BP guns get an extra treatment around the breech block/hammer area where BP residues can deposit. A very effective barrier.

Lots of gems in there! Thanks for the tips.
Yeah, I know the BP is pretty acidic on the barrel. Amazing that any of the old front/breech loaders survived. So the bore butter kind of "treats" the bore making cleaning easier and protects it from the acidic residue?