PA LEO Threatens OC Citizen

[dmancornell]

A permit to carry does not give you a right to argue with cops or refuse to comply with their instructions. They still have authority over you.

Not only is a carry permit not needed to argue with the cops, it is a moral imperative not to comply with unlawful orders. Cops have zero authority to harass law abiding citizens.

 

[ConditionOrange]

How hard is it to just comply? Do as they ask, show them your documents and be on your way... So many people think that as soon as they get a CCW, they are now above being treated the same as any other person a cop comes in contact with.

Why argue with the cops? You're going to lose every time. Not matter what moral high ground you think you walk on.

(I am not a cop btw)

 

[dmancornell]

How hard is it to just comply? Do as they ask, show them your documents and be on your way... So many people think that as soon as they get a CCW, they are now above being treated the same as any other person a cop comes in contact with.

This man is being treated like a criminal for exercising his rights. Complying with that kind of harassment induces future maltreatment.

Why argue with the cops? You're going to lose every time. Not matter what moral high ground you think you walk on.

It's the principle. That kind of "policing" automatically puts the victim on the moral and legal high ground.

By your logic, Gandhi "lost" to the British cops time and again. He still won at the end.

 

[mjbskwim]

The flame is kinda low........

Is this dumbAss related to the guy in SoCla that open caries a unloaded gun?
Just looking for trouble?

Real simple,doesn't matter if you are right or wrong,DO AS THE POLICE SAY.then if necessary suit them.
But do as the police say

Then you make the whole gun community look like smart people instead of a bunch of *** bubblegumS.

Y'all don't get it,kill them with kindness.

But most LEOs need to learn the laws.I talked to a WSP that said it was OK to carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle.He was a detective.

But why not just let then bury themselves with their lack of knowledge,and just do as they say?
You won't win.They have so many tools to get some little conviction.

Just like usual here on NWFA,bash every cop in site.

 

[Trlsmn]

This guy is a jerk and is his own worst enemy! He should have complied with the police and showed him the license. Buy not doing so, he dug his own grave, and maybe he will loose his license for his conduct during this conflict.

There was a time in this country where black men have been lynched for dating a white women, I'm reasonably certain that many people of the time upon hearing of the lynchings also stated that they dug their own graves, just sayin.

The duty of police is to enforce the law, if no law is broken they have no business harassing a legitimate citizen.

 

[jgeist]

If this guy is first directed by a cop to do so and so, then, do it. If the cop violates his rights then, well, he can sue the cop and the department. He was resisting ever step of the way and escalated his own demise. This matter could have de-escalated very easily and without incident if the OC guy had first complied, talked politely, and cooperated with the cops. If they screwed up, then they did so at their own demise. Being a loud mouth, regardless if he was on the lawful side, does nothing; he is not the judge, DA nor the Police chief on the spot. His power comes from being polite, cooperative, and informative to the police--even if they are in the wrong. If they arrest him for lawful behavior--which his big mouth and offensive conduct is chargable and as well as interference with police duties, will get him in trouble. He made matters worse--regardless if he had a lawful right to carry. He does not have a lawful right to be a big mouth nor uncooperative within that context. The DA could go after his butt outside of the lawful OC if the DA wanted to. It is on video and taped. Good enough evidence for the DA.

So first off, this guy is a first class jerk and normally I would agree with you and I tend to side with the LEO's 9 out of 10 times... However, I think that you should spend some time reading the in details on the PAFOA forum. It shows that this is not the first incident with PA LEO's overreacting and that it really "appears" that the PA LEO's have issues to resolve around the 2nd amendment... So as big a jerk as he may be, he is also quite bright, lucky and has a set of balls the size of wrecking balls.... I am not taking sides yet, but this is worth the research.. The next OP may just be you and if Obama has his way it likely will be... Time will tell, but I reserve judgment for the time being.. I do like this quote from the OP though:

"Posted by Svickstc - You're putting your life at risk by going to a place you have every right to be and doing something you have every right to do."

Response by the OP "Running away from the problem is not the answer - I'd rather put effort in to fix it."

Sometimes the rough road is the only path to your destination and dam this guy has been on a bumpy ride....

Arrested by the Philadelphia Police for Open Carry

 

[Riot]

This guy is a jerk and is his own worst enemy! He should have complied with the police and showed him the license. Buy not doing so, he dug his own grave, and maybe he will loose his license for his conduct during this conflict.

The cop probably would have shot him if he had reached for something...even stated he was going to show him his license but the officer wouldn't have it.

 

[huntpotter]

Always remember: Fly below the radar. Don't flaunt your gun. Avoid cops. Be a small mouse, with a big CONCEALED gun. If the cops show up, you are already screwed.

If you have a point to prove, be ready to get tazed. I'll obey the concealed carry laws, and let you go make an example of OC rights, and laugh when you get your teeth ran into the curb.

Even if you are 100% within your rights, you may still have to spend thousands on a lawyer, to prove your inocence.

 

[jgeist]

Always remember: Fly below the radar. Don't flaunt your gun. Avoid cops. Be a small mouse, with a big CONCEALED gun. If the cops show up, you are already screwed.

If you have a point to prove, be ready to get tazed. I'll obey the concealed carry laws, and let you go make an example of OC rights, and laugh when you get your teeth ran into the curb.

Even if you are 100% within your rights, you may still have to spend thousands on a lawyer, to prove your inocence.

I kindly disagree... back to the OP's quote "Running away from the problem is not the answer - I'd rather put effort in to fix it."... There is a time to stand with the hopes of not falling from incoming lead... But the bullbubblegum has to stop....

 

[Blitzkrieg]

How hard is it to just comply? Do as they ask, show them your documents and be on your way... So many people think that as soon as they get a CCW, they are now above being treated the same as any other person a cop comes in contact with.

Why argue with the cops? You're going to lose every time. Not matter what moral high ground you think you walk on.

(I am not a cop btw)

It was open carry, not CCW

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Always remember: Fly below the radar. Don't flaunt your gun. Avoid cops. Be a small mouse, with a big CONCEALED gun. If the cops show up, you are already screwed.

If you have a point to prove, be ready to get tazed. I'll obey the concealed carry laws, and let you go make an example of OC rights, and laugh when you get your teeth ran into the curb.

Even if you are 100% within your rights, you may still have to spend thousands on a lawyer, to prove your inocence.

This sounds smart.. and it may be if you're a wise guy..but it is not how our nation was created

 

[RB87]

I don't care how polite he was being, he was acting like an a**. A permit to carry does not give you a right to argue with cops or refuse to comply with their instructions. They still have authority over you. If they are not aware of the exact law they will sort it out after they figure out if you're legal or not. Why don't people get this? And since when does a CCW allow you to open carry?

It does if said instructions/orders are unlawful. Doesn't make it necessarily smart on the citizen's part...

 

[Riot]

I guess shame on the CHL person that accidentally lets someone see his concealed pistol?

So- we live in a free nation....as long as the sheepdogs look and act like sheep?

I, for one, agree that the guy should have simply complied with the cop pointing a gun at him; if he was a lesser man he would've shot him and called it a day then told his comrades that "he went for it". I just think that we have an obligation to hold the police accountable- just as they hold us accountable. Too much power in unwatched hands leads to trouble- no matter what. This "individual" brought a recorder and a gun...opened carried and went out in public. Can he not do that? So a cop comes up to him, not knowing the laws of his state and puts a gun to his face. Why? Because he can't do that? Because it makes him feel uncomfortable? Because "normal" people don't do that?

I guess if I bought a bright yellow dodge viper that means I always break the speed limit and should be pulled over just for driving and obvious car that would break the speed limit...right?

While I don't agree with people that open carry, I still believe it is a right. A right granted to every citizen. Just because it isn't something that we're used to or the norm doesn't make it automatically illegal.


Some officers truly believe that only perps and cops have guns...if they're not a cop then they should be treated like perps. Some people in this forum believe that cops should always side on the citizen and just take everyone's word that they're not the bad guy because they have a license. Well, I beg to differ. There IS middle ground here. The middle ground is educating the police and the public- but it also means not being sue-happy gun-totting meat heads that the left makes us all out to be. Seriously, I think all of us need to be the example, not the exception. He should have cooperated and the cop should have been way more educated on the laws he enforces.

My 2 cents...

 

[ConditionOrange]

It was open carry, not CCW

The guy said he had a permit, I'm assuming it was a CONCEALED permit.

And the cops could care less what you think is lawful, or even what you know to be lawful. They may not be right, but they are not going to put up with you "taking a stand" so to speak. I've never been a fan of the police, but I have always done what they asked in my encounters with them and has zero problems. I've had guns drawn on me in mistaken identity a couple times. I complied and was on my way in a reasonable amount of time. Was I pissed? Sure, but I did what they asked and the let me go without incident. If I had started running my mouth I bet it would not have gone so well.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

I don't care how polite he was being, he was acting like an a**. A permit to carry does not give you a right to argue with cops or refuse to comply with their instructions. They still have authority over you. If they are not aware of the exact law they will sort it out after they figure out if you're legal or not. Why don't people get this? And since when does a CCW allow you to open carry?

In different states/cities, a CCW does in fact give you permission to open carry. This being one of them. Even so, in this case the officer is supposed to stop the individual and confirm that he/she has a concealed carry permit. I dont necessarily agree with this. I also dont like sobriety check points or pulling over drivers just to verify a valid license or insurance. I believe they should only be allowed to detain someone if there is actual cause to believe a crime has been committed.
According to the man's account, the officer already had his sidearm aimed at the citizen before he had a chance to turn around. I'm not sure of the legality of this. I bet it's not encouraged, but it's probably not illegal either.
I do agree though that the time to argue compliance is either in court afterwards, or if compliance directly endangers your life. If an officer orders you to commit a crime, it is your duty not to comply.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse on either end. The officer handled himself like an overzealous child and is lucky that the law he was ignorant of actually allowed his actions.

In the end the man was let go on the spot, his weapon returned to him, and now he's pursuing civil actions.
He is also in talks with a few news organizations. I think that will backfire on him when they play his tape to the masses. The court of public opinion is generally not kind towards people who open carry and defy police orders.

For reference:

GENERAL: 1272 09/22/10 12:53:20

TO : ALL COMMANDING OFFICERS / DEPARTMENT HEADS
SUBJECT : FIREARM OPEN CARRY LAW IN PHILADELPHIA

1. DIRECTIVE 137, ENTITLED "FIREARMS" IS BEING UPDATED
CONCERNING THE PENNSYLVANIA OPEN CARRY LAWS
REGARDING THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA. THIS TELETYPE
REFLECTS THE NEW POLICY AS IT WILL APPEAR IN THE
DIRECTIVE.

2. ALL OFFICERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT PENNSYLVANIA IS
CONSIDERED AN "OPEN CARRY STATE" WITH THE EXCEPTION OF
PHILADELPHIA. IT IS IMPORTANT TO DEFINE A FEW TERMS USED,
WHICH ARE AS FOLLOWS:

"OPEN CARRY" REFERS TO THE ACT OF OPENLY AND VISIBLY
CARRYING A FIREARM ON ONE'S PERSON.

"OPEN CARRY STATE" REFERS TO A STATE THAT ALLOWS
PEOPLE TO OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A FIREARM ON ONE'S
PERSON WITHOUT A SPECIAL LICENSE OR PERMIT.

"CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE" REFERS TO A SPECIFIC
LICENSE ISSUED TO AN INDIVIDUAL AUTHORIZING THE PERSON
TO CARRY A FIREARM CONCEALED ON HIS OR HER PERSON OR
VEHICLE.

3. IN PHILADELPHIA, UNLIKE ANY OTHER PART OF THE STATE, FOR
ANY PERSON TO LAWFULLY, OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A
FIREARM, THAT PERSON MUST HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY
FIREARMS LICENSE. SO, IN PHILADELPHIA, IF A PERSON HAS A
VALID CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE, HE OR SHE CAN
LEGALLY CARRY A FIREARM EITHER OPEN AND VISIBLE OR
CONCEALED.

4. AN OFFICER ENCOUNTERING A PERSON CARRYING A FIREARM
OPENLY IN PHILADELPHIA SHOULD FOR THE SAFTEY OF PUBLIC
INVESTIGATE AS A POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION.

A. SINCE A SEPARATE LICENSE IS REQUIRED IN PHILADELPHIA
AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY OFFICER TO KNOW WHO DOES
AND DOES NOT HAVE A VALID CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE, IT
IS ENTIRELY REASONALBE FOR OFFICERS TO TEMPORARILY
DETAIN AND INVESTIGATE ANY INDIVIDUAL CARRYING A
FIREARM EXPOSED TO DETERMINE IF THE PERSON IS
OPERATING WITH THE LAW.

B. IMMEDIATLEY SEIZE ANY FIREARMS FOR OFFICER SAFETY
DURING THE STOP AND UNLOAD THE FIREARMS IF POSSIBLE,
BUT ONLY IF IT CAN BE DONE SAFELY.

C. A 75-48A MUST BE COMPLETED AND THE BASIS FOR THE STOP
WOULD BE A "POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION"

D. ONCE THE OFFICER RECEIVES CONFIRMATION THAT THE
CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE IS VALID, AND THERE ARE NO
OTHER OFFENSE OR VIOLATIONS BEING INVESTIGATED,
OFFICERS SHOULD RETURN THE FIREARM AND AMMUNITION
BACK TO THE INDIVIDUAL AT THE END OF THE STOP.

E. HOWEVER, IF THE INDIVIDUAL CANNOT PRODUCE A VALID
CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE OR THE LICENSE IS NOT VALID
(I.E. EXPIRED OR REVOKED), PROBABLE CAUSE THEN EXISTS
TO ARREST THE INDIVIDUAL FOR THE VUFAVIOLATION AND
TRANSPORT THE INDIVIDUAL TO THE DIVISIONAL DETECTIVES
FOR PROCESSING. THE FIREARM AND AMMUNITION SHOULD
BE PLACED ON A PROPERTY RECEIPT (75-3) AND MARKED AS
" EVIDENCE". A 75-48A FOR THE INITIAL STOP MUST BE
PREPARD ALONG WITH A 75-48 FOR THE VUFA ARREST.

<broken link removed>

 

[74sporty]

i dont think he was being an ***... the cops i thought certainly were. they treated a tax payin citizen like garbage and had horrible social skills. their job as cops is to keep the peace. the way they handled the whole thing just made it worse. its a culture of power abuse... we've all done it to some degree at our work place or home. its not unheard of that there are some cops that do too. they are given this authoritive power everyday and a few that give in to the dark side. who here has been unreasonably disrespected by a cop?

my hands raised...

 

[Blitzkrieg]

The guy said he had a permit, I'm assuming it was a CONCEALED permit.

And the cops could care less what you think is lawful, or even what you know to be lawful. They may not be right, but they are not going to put up with you "taking a stand" so to speak. I've never been a fan of the police, but I have always done what they asked in my encounters with them and has zero problems. I've had guns drawn on me in mistaken identity a couple times. I complied and was on my way in a reasonable amount of time. Was I pissed? Sure, but I did what they asked and the let me go without incident. If I had started running my mouth I bet it would not have gone so well.

As far as I can tell from handgunlaw.us no permit is required to open carry, (Mr Nice Guy seems to have discovered otherwise) so I assumed that was just a spurious comment from the fellow

In Philadelphia of all places.. no wonder the Liberty Bell cracked

I've taken a stand before when cops were wrong... and they listened to me and departed with some serious doubts as to their understanding of the law. I lay down and cower to no man. Your mileage may vary

 

[Redcap]

As far as I can tell from handgunlaw.us no permit is required to open carry, so that was just a spurious comment from the fellow

I've taken a stand before when cops were wrong... and they listened to me and departed with some serious doubts as to their understanding of the law. I lay down and cower to no man. Your mileage may vary

Damn straight.

 

[Trlsmn]

In Philadelphia of all places.. no wonder the Liberty Bell cracked

I also found that ironic.

 

[billdeserthills]

Did you hear the entire audio? True, he should've just got down on his knees but the SGT lied and said the guy kept his hands in his pockets when his supervisor showed up...then scolded him about the law and stated that he couldn't open carry- ever.

Guy I paid my new lawyer over $20,000 last month, all because the arresting officer lied & his backup..well backs him up. I don't need to hear the whole recording guy I Lived It. My new money-saving attitude now requires me to stop telling the po-po what is legal and start listening to the man, as I don't have a lot of money left to afford to do this a second time.