Oregon CHL question on "no firearms" posted businesses

[Botte Hork]

A quickie on OR. I have understood that in WA the signs have little legal meaning, they can ask you to leave and you can get charged with misdemeanor trespassing if you don't comply. How does it work for OR? Assuming one is carrying concealed and has a valid CHL, all the paperwork and other legal status stuff is fine. Can one go into a shop which has some form of "no weapons" postings on the door? Are the legal ramifications similar as in WA?

Thanks for any pointers/hints!

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[accessbob]

same as in Washington.

Sent from my LG Optimus Elite using Tapatalk 2

 

[Botte Hork]

Thanks. Do you know the ORS numbers (or number range) I should consult? I'm pretty well in touch with the WA RCW's, but Oregon is something I need to look into more.

 

[drew]

164.265 Criminal trespass while in possession of a firearm and 164.205 for definitions.

 

[Botte Hork]

Thank you Drew, very helpful. The 164.265 section is nice and brief, and 164.205.3 covers the specific definitions (most notably 3b).

 

[Darknight]

This directly from the Washington County Sheriff's Office website (Vol_8 Issue_8-August, 2012)


Concealed Carry - Your Questions Answered


Can a CHL holder carry in theaters, malls or other public venues that are privately owned?
If the location is open to the public but privately owned and has posted a firearms prohibition, you may not carry concealed. Try to call ahead or check their website before taking your firearm with you to avoid the dilemma of what to do with your firearm. Securing it in your vehicle is not a safe alternative, as cars are vulnerable to theft. Many people purchase locking cases that can mount securely in the vehicle.

Other places you cannot carry concealed . . .
Oregon law provides very few limits on where a person with a Concealed Handgun License (CHL) can carry a firearm, and federal laws contain a few more prohibitions. Even if you have a Concealed Handgun License, you cannot carry a firearm on any of the following properties:
•Federal buildings
•Court facilities
•Indian lands unless by tribal permission; this may also apply to certain casinos on Indian lands
•Secure areas of airports
•Social Security offices
•Posted private property where the owner prohibits firearms
For more information, read ORS 166.370.

 

[fd15k]

This directly from the Washington County Sheriff's Office website (Vol_8 Issue_8-August, 2012)


Concealed Carry - Your Questions Answered


Can a CHL holder carry in theaters, malls or other public venues that are privately owned?
If the location is open to the public but privately owned and has posted a firearms prohibition, you may not carry concealed. Try to call ahead or check their website before taking your firearm with you to avoid the dilemma of what to do with your firearm. Securing it in your vehicle is not a safe alternative, as cars are vulnerable to theft. Many people purchase locking cases that can mount securely in the vehicle.

Except it's not the law, and they should make it clear that it is their recommendation.

 

[Dan-Dee Sales Inc]

This will always go down the wrong road. IF you walk into a business that has a sign posted "NO FIREARMS" and they catch you, they ask you to leave. If you do not, they call the Police and charge you. Keep the weapon hidden and nobody gets in trouble.

 

[Tangent123123]

This will always go down the wrong road. IF you walk into a business that has a sign posted "NO FIREARMS" and they catch you, they ask you to leave. If you do not, they call the Police and charge you. Keep the weapon hidden and nobody gets in trouble.

Concealed is concealed. If you do it right they'll never notice. If they do ask you to leave, don't be an bubblegum and kick up a stink. Just take your business elsewhere.

 

[Botte Hork]

Concealed is concealed. If you do it right they'll never notice. If they do ask you to leave, don't be an bubblegum and kick up a stink. Just take your business elsewhere.

Of course. My question was more about knowing how much weight the sign has initially. A lot of them are in places where they're not easy to notice and one might overlook it upon entry. It'll go fine most of the times, but I wouldn't want to get in trouble in case the gun prints unintentionally.

 

[Dan-Dee Sales Inc]

I know some people that have been asked to leave but nobody that has been arrested or ticketed.

 

[fd15k]

Of course. My question was more about knowing how much weight the sign has initially. A lot of them are in places where they're not easy to notice and one might overlook it upon entry. It'll go fine most of the times, but I wouldn't want to get in trouble in case the gun prints unintentionally.

That's a good question, and it comes up here several times a year Those signs carry no legal weight in the state of Oregon. Just keep in mind that sometimes Post Offices can be located in places like shopping malls, and similar signs can be seen there - no carry allowed on Post Office property. Same goes for court houses - they sometimes occupy only parts of certain public buildings, and carry is not allowed in those parts of the buildings.

 

[Darknight]

Except it's not the law, and they should make it clear that it is their recommendation.

In your opinion.

 

[Darknight]

POST OFFICES:

Section 232.1(l) states:

Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.


The Gun Zone RKBA -- 39 CFR 232.1

Official purposes would include mailing a firearm, which is legal, so there is exceptions.

 

[fd15k]

In your opinion.

Not sure what part of my statement caught your attention. That there is no law setting legal status of such signs, or that officers of the law should not make up laws. Feel free to clarify.

POST OFFICES:

Section 232.1(l) states:

Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.


The Gun Zone RKBA -- 39 CFR 232.1

Official purposes would include mailing a firearm, which is legal, so there is exceptions.

My understanding is that this thread was about

a) carrying a firearm for self-defense
b) that firearm being a handgun

So for word police I will clarify : carrying of handguns for self-defense on USPS property is prohibited, CHL or not, whether a sign is posted or not.

For more information on the subject see Bonidity v. Postal Service which is currently being litigated :
http://archive.recapthelaw.org/cod/122068/

 

[Dan-Dee Sales Inc]

Not sure what part of my statement caught your attention. That there is no law setting legal status of such signs, or that officers of the law should not make up laws. Feel free to clarify.



My understanding is that this thread was about

a) carrying a firearm for self-defense
b) that firearm being a handgun

So for word police I will clarify : carrying of handguns for self-defense on USPS property is prohibited, CHL or not, whether a sign is posted or not.

For more information on the subject see Bonidity v. Postal Service which is currently being litigated :
Bonidy et al v. United States Postal Service et al (cod/122068) - The RECAP Archive

The Post Office is Federal Land. no guns
and the only people allowed to mail a Firearm are FFL holders.

 

[fd15k]

The Post Office is Federal Land. no guns
and the only people allowed to mail a Firearm are FFL holders.

You have to be an FFL (collectors are an open question) to mail a handgun. Anybody can mail a long gun.

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

 

[Darknight]

You have to be an FFL (collectors are an open question) to mail a handgun. Anybody can mail a long gun.

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons

This part might be important to the hunters on this forum:

Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

 

[Darknight]

Not sure what part of my statement caught your attention. That there is no law setting legal status of such signs, or that officers of the law should not make up laws. Feel free to clarify.


You don't need to be disrespectful and start name calling. I'm not the word police as you so eloquently put it; I just don't want people getting the wrong idea and think that they can't have any firearms at any time at the post office. I was just pointing out the exception.

Clarification as to signs that prohibit weapons or firearms:
164.205
(3) Enter or remain unlawfully means:
(c) To enter premises that are open to the public after being lawfully directed not to enter the premises.

You know as well as I do that you can interpret the above more than one way. It would only take an ADA trying to make a name for themselves to say that the person in charge of the property put the sign up and that the sign constitutes being lawfully directed not to enter the premises with any type of weapon or firearm. There is already case law that allows conditional entry or remaining on premises in Oregon.

I'm sure you have seen the signs when entering a department store that say: No Food Or Drink Allowed, So if you have food or drink in your possesion you are denied entry. The only difference between the food and drink sign and the no weapons or firearms sign would be that the no firearms sign has the backing of the law to enforce it. That does not mean that the store will not just ask you to leave instead of calling the police, that is their option. IMO

 

[Botte Hork]

I think the essence lies in the meaning of "lawfully directed". I've done a little googling and didn't come up with much (reading jurisprudence in English is still challenging, but I'm getting more used to the style of language used ), but I think we can safely assume that being verbally instructed by someone in charge falls under it. If a sign falls under it, I would expect that sign to have to comply with regulations describing size, symbols, text and location. As long as that's not the case, I think it'll take a mediocre freshman summer law school intern to push back on your ambitious ADA.

A week ago or so I went to Ikea (the horror!), which has a sign with a traffic-style symbol (handgun, red circle around it, red diagonal line through handgun) and the text "weapon free zone", or something along those lines. Does it mean they don't want to take a handgun inside (what about my pocket knife?)? Or do they just want to say they don't have any weapons in the building?