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Ordered m16a1 parts kit

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by ruSSrt, Mar 19, 2011.

  1. ruSSrt

    ruSSrt WA Member

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    Just ordered my m16a1 parts kit from jgsales.com.

    Was looking around for a bit and found already complete rifles made out of the same parts but wanted to build my own retro. Plus all of them I found had century lowers and I didn't really want to use century on my first ar rifle, its fine on my ak74 though. I will be using nodakspud 16a1 lower on my built. And probably will pick up an original bayonet for it a little later.

    One more reason I decided to go with that kit is that it comes with all full auto parts. They are going in to garbage right away, but just a fact that I had them in my hands will make a little happy.

    I was wondering if you guys have dealt with builts like that before and what advice would you have for me?

    Thanks!
     
  2. thirtycal

    thirtycal Camas, WA Active Member

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    I see you're in WA. So am I. I'm building a pair of kits I ordered right now. Should be finishing them up this weekend. Here's what they look like so far:

    late_vn_era_603_incomplete.jpg

    I'm building them as very close replicas of a 1972 Model 903 (late Vietnam era). Notice the lowers with correct period engraving.

    Also - not gonna tell you how to run your life, but as a WA resident you may not know of the very specific details in the state laws which specifically say that the mere possession of machine gun parts is against state law. You may not now that there has been at least one somewhat 'famous' example of a WA state resident being prosecuted against this law, and losing... I don't remember the name of the individual but he went to jail for a couple of years for this.

    If you're a gambler, then go for it. Personally, when I ordered my kits, I specifically told the vendors to remove all 4 peices of the fire control group. THe only questionable part then remaining was the FA bolt assembly - but this is more of a grey area because the use of the FA by current Colt civilian production, as well as a recent BATFE ruling makes this less of a problem - but still could be in WA state.

    You might consider requesting that JG remove the trigger parts. It's just not worth screwing around with the stupid WA state laws. I posted a big thread about this here several months ago, and the general concensus was that if you took receipt of the package, you could be in trouble. And on top of all this, you just posted in a public forum that you intend to hold the full auto parts in your hand. I think others may disagree, but utlimately I think it's just not worth any risk in regards to this issue in WA state.

    Just get a DPMS M16A1 replacement semiauto trigger group and do the naval jelly trick on it. That's what I did and it looks perfect - and fully compliant with WA state laws.

    Thirtycal
     
  3. ruSSrt

    ruSSrt WA Member

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    Thirtycal

    thank you for advice, i'll contact Jg right now to see if they can do that for me. I didnt even think of that.

    Those are great looking "rifles". I wondering how much did you pay for those lowers?
     
  4. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    As I understand the antique Prohibition-era WA State law (which should be abolished) the restriction on parts applies to those that can ONLY be used in a full auto. If the part can be used to build a semi auto only gun, as I understand it you're OK. I believe this means the bolt carrier is OK (if it functions properly in your build) but I would not receive the trigger group parts !

    I am not a lawyer, however so verify this elsewhere. Our resident full auto guys like cocktailer could verify
     
  5. thirtycal

    thirtycal Camas, WA Active Member

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    Lowers are NDS-16A1 from Nodak $150 each. Engraving from Ident Marking was $108 each. Total for each is $258. One of my parts kits came from Gunthings, the other from Apex. I special requested that the fire control group parts be yanked from the kits, and they complied. I believe I did call JGSales (where I originally was going to order the parts), and they wanted an additional $10/kit to remove them (handling fee they called it).

    And by the way, the thread where this WA state M16A1 kit legality thing was discussed was actually over on Fortmoe (not sure if you're a member - it's a private forum). If you are, the thread is here:

    Fort Moe Arms Forum - Login

    Here's a similar thread right here on nwfirearms:

    http://www.northwestfirearms.com/ge...bolt-carrier-group-semi-auto-ar-15-rifle.html

    The jist of both of these threads is the same - it is commonly held that the FA bolt is ok, because this specifically was called out by the BATFE as 'OK' due to the fact that Colt Manufacturing currently ships semiauto rifles with FA bolts - but they DO NOT ship these rifles with FA trigger parts. And this is the key to why it is NOT recommended that anyone in the state of WA take possession of FA fire control groups as part of the overall M16A1 kits commonly available today. Having the FA bolt by itself is probably OK in WA.... And having the FA fire control group in WA is definitely grey area, but possibly OK... But having BOTH the FA bolt and the FA fire control group is WA is pretty universally agreed to be NOT OK in WA due to Washington state laws. It doesn't require that these parts be installed - the mere possession of these parts could constitute 'constructive intent' due to the very strict rules in WA state regarding FA weapons.

    Everyone chooses to interpret these laws as they see fit - but I have a good career, a house, a family, etc... and do I really want to risk that for something as stupid as an M16A1 parts kit? Not a f'ing chance. It's very simple to just tell the vendor to yank the fire control group parts from these kits - then there's no more worry. You can get a near perfect fully legal semi-auto clone of the M16A1 FCG parts from Brownells for $35/set (with C&R discount). That would pay for about the first 10 minutes of your 2 years worth of attorney fees if the state decided to pick you as their example. Just because I'm paranoid, I ended up getting rid of the FA bolt carriers too - switched to semiauto on my builds. It's just not worth the worry in WA... So now there's no possible way I could have any problems with these kits.

    Not trying to come across as a know-it-all... just trying to tell you what I learned having done a good amount of research on this topic prior to ordering my kits. The reason I knew about this is because I've been building AK kits for a long time, and the same problem exists with AK kits - although it's somewhat different due to the design of the AK bolt carrier.

    -Thirtycal
     
  6. thirtycal

    thirtycal Camas, WA Active Member

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    JC Weaponary and Coctailer are not lawyers either :)

    See my reply above to ruSSrt. Yes the WA is written to say something about 'exclusive use' in a FA or some such wording... I don't have a direct link to the statute right now but I think it might be in that thread I posted above. Basically as I understood it, the possession of both the FA FCG group and the FA bolt is the problem in WA, and that's above and beyond the particular wording about 'exclusive use'. On their own, possession of the FA FCG is 'dark grey'; and possession of the FA bolt carrier is probably OK (light grey). But when you combine them simply by possession (not even installation/use), you've now gone from grey to pretty much "intent' to manufacture a ClassIII NFA weapon. Of course there isn't a specific legal ruling on this, but there is at least one criminal case on record for very similar conditions that led to prosecution/conviction for a gun dealer in WA state (again I believe that is mentioned in the thread above).

    Long story short - we (civilians) can argue about this all we want - but the truth is that the state can do whatever it wants when it comes to these grey area laws, and it's up to a jury to decide if you're innocent/guilty. We'll never make sense of it, because there is no sense - we're held to whatever whims the authorities choose, so the best thing we can do as civilians is just educate ourselves and steer clear of grey areas in the first place, rather than have to defend ourselves against the whims of state authorities later. Saying "I didn't know" is not a meaningful legal defense.

    Oh and by the way, I'm certainly not a lawyer either. :)

    -Thirtycal
     
  7. thirtycal

    thirtycal Camas, WA Active Member

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    >there is at least one criminal case on record for very similar conditions that led to prosecution/conviction for a gun dealer in WA state

    Ah, it was in that thread - here's the story:

    http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Politics/Tax Cops/Big Al and the BATF/Big Al's Gunfight 5/

    This should be required reading for anyone in the state of WA that does kit building. What a nightmare. THis is why I refused to take possession of the FA fire control parts in the kits, and why I chose to swap out my FA bolt/carrier with a semiauto version.

    -Thirtycal
     
  8. ruSSrt

    ruSSrt WA Member

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    thirtycal

    thank you for all that information. I was on the market for m16 kit for about 3 months now. reading up here and ar15 forums, and just googling alot. Talked to couple of people here in lockal gun shops and came to conclusion that if you not being stupid and going to try out your FA triger group before you throw it away you should be fine. I did look at bopth websites. APEX doesnt have them anymore, gunthing had almost ready kit that just put together with pencil barrel painted and already drilled. but that new barrel that comes with JG is better, or that as far i found from reading up on people who got their kits from Jg and gunthing.But you right, $10 dollars is better than 10 years in prison + all legal fines.

    I thought (and they looks like) originals back from that era. I'm talking about $1000+ per receiver alone. thats what i woulkd like to mine.

    and again thank you for great read! i'm not going to risk it!

    Blitzkreig

    Grey areas are a little scary. And you right, they can do and say pretty much anything and you as a citizen is out of luck. My opinion is that if you gun is complient to all ATF rules and you not doing anything stupid and illegal that should be fine.
     
  9. eldbillbo

    eldbillbo clackamas New world samurai and a redneck none the less Bronze Supporter

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    Correction to some of the replies above , Its not the bolt that is in question its the carrier .

    before you order Make sure to have the full auto FCG removed from the box. there is a good chance they may have already done that since its going to washington but verify

    again your bolt is fine not a NFA controlled part as mentioned above, its the carrier that may be a controlled NFA item and has always been a gray area even in the rest of the country . The carrier is a major part of the kit and not a very good deal if you buy a kit without it. To play it really safe If you have a buddy in oregon that dose not own a ar15 or a ar15 receiver send the kit to him minus the FCG and grind the sear trip off the back of the carrier about a 1/4 of a inch to be on the safe side and its no longer a M16 carrier any more
     
  10. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    That is NOT what the laws says. IF that is what the law said most AR parts would be illegal too, along with many other things.

    RCW 9.41.220: Unlawful firearms and parts contraband.

    RCW 9.41.220
    Unlawful firearms and parts contraband.


    All machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles, or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, illegally held or illegally possessed are hereby declared to be contraband, and it shall be the duty of all peace officers, and/or any officer or member of the armed forces of the United States or the state of Washington, to seize said machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or parts thereof, wherever and whenever found.



    So ONLY parts that can ONLY be used in ILLEGAL SBR/SBS/MG (cause there are legal ones in this state including privately held) are ban.

    IF the parts can be used in ANY legal way they are not illegal.............
     
  11. ruSSrt

    ruSSrt WA Member

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    wow i'm impressed. Looks like kit that i got is brand new. they say handguard might be cracked or something. My handguard looks like new, no chips or cracks. I got small crack on the butt plate, where screw holds in place buffer there. Front sight got C mark on it, upper got H and C on it also, bolt has C on it also. I'm very happy with my kit so far.


    Been bogging NoDakSpud and Ident marking to make my upper more realistic to that time period. SOunds like i'll be shipping my upper to nodakspud to get better fit and closer color.
    I'm very happy with my JGsales.com purchase.

    P.S. second $500+ dollar purchase that i'm very happy with.
     
  12. ruSSrt

    ruSSrt WA Member

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    hey thirtycal what barrels are you going to use on your builds?
     
  13. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    This thread should be stickied.. excellent points made and thanks for posting the exact statute, nwcid

    Look guys, the government is out of control and can lock any of us up for anything they want these days, unless you get a jury of non sheeple. People are even being locked up by the feds for mere speech but I will not derail the thread by giving examples here

    Do the best you can to comply with the law as it is for now and work to derail this government and restore our liberties
     
  14. ruSSrt

    ruSSrt WA Member

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    it took me me about 4 months before i even considered buyin this kit. ANd only because of the all compliance and scary BATF stuff..........
     
  15. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    That's the purpose.. intimidation and so many rules they can easily entrap you
     
  16. ruSSrt

    ruSSrt WA Member

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    alright. Before i got across this topic on ar15 forum about headspacing i was pretty comfortable with this issue. Well atleast never had to worry about it because all my guns were purchased new and assembled or use and assembled. I felt pretty comfortable about buying this parts kit because all items are mil spec. but now i'm wondering. Since barrel is brand new (0 rounds through it) and bolt is semi new (0 to very little round count) should i or do i need to do headspacing?

    Thirtycal
    do you do it on your builds?
     
  17. ruSSrt

    ruSSrt WA Member

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    i think i might go with different barrel..... kind of still deciding.
    Any thoughts? Suggestions?
     
  18. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    Unless they are both (barrel and bolt) are way out of spec I would not worry too much. If you are worried run down to the local gun shop and see if they will loan or rent you their headspage gauges for 1 min and check.
     
  19. ruSSrt

    ruSSrt WA Member

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    well i'm not worried about headspacing at this moment.
    back when i was buying a kit i was pretty sure that i was good with everything it comes with.
    after actually getting it and starting to work on it i have more and more question coming up about barrel.
    1) it needs parkerazing. i found a place that will do it for me and it'll be $95
    2) big problem is it needs tapered pins drilled to install front sight. kind of hard in my area, found only one so i'll have to go down to get it done and its $45 an hour to do that.
    3) if i'm going to pay $140 for all above i get 1:10 unchromed H bar barrel..... hmmmmm well for $150 i can get already parkerized chrome lined in 1:7 or 1:9.....
    so thats my "problem" or more of what do i want to do ......
     
  20. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    then that is a hard one. Think I would go new too.