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I'm going to ask you professional educators a serious question: How many more kids have to die because you are afraid of guns?

There have been multiple instances of ordinary citizens stopping mass shooters with their own legally possessed firearms. The Oregon mall shooter and the Texas church shooter are good examples of what happens when a law abiding citizen with a gun is present. When confronted, either by ordinary citizens or law enforcement with a firearm, the shooter's response has been to break off and flee, or to kill themselves on the spot.

My kids attend a school that is wide open. There are no fences, no checkpoints, no armed guards, not even unarmed security. I am concerned for their safety every day. I want to do whatever we can to protect them. One of those things, the one most likely to produce results, is having armed staff on site. But we can't do that because of the overwhelming fear and hatred most professional educators exhibit towards firearms. The only thing we seem to be able to even consider is to ban the object of those fears from society. The only thing we can even talk about is playing a gigantic game of whack-a-mole as we try to outlaw various firearm configurations and accessories in the belief that somehow prohibition will work with guns, when it's been a dismal failure with drugs and alcohol. To think differently is to be condemned and shouted down.

But banning guns is all we can consider doing. It's not reasoned debate. It's not logical thought. It's pure emotion. To think differently is to be condemned, publicly shamed, and shouted down. It's hatred, prejudice, and fear. Can we set those emotions aside for a moment? Can we set partisan politics aside for a moment? Can we turn off the political spin on both sides? Can we simply care about our kids and do what's most likely to save their lives? Please, professional educators, can you get past your own selfish interests and unreasonable fears for a just a little while so we can talk seriously about real solutions? My kids are precious to me. I don't want them to die because you're afraid of guns.
 
Speaking only for myself...
I am a teacher and I am not afraid of guns.
I am willing to carry at school to defend my students , others and myself.

That said when a teacher is asked to carry they are also being asked if they can:
Shoot a current student...
Shoot a former student...
Shoot a student that they teach , have taught , or care for...
Shoot a student in front of other students...

This is a lot to ask of some people.
I have been in combat and have shot and killed the enemy...I know of others who have been in combat and could not make themselves shoot at strangers who were shooting at them....
To ask someone to shoot a kid that they know and as I said care for....is a important decision that they need to make...and not everyone will be able to do so.

Should teachers be armed?....
Maybe...it depends on the teacher...just like everyone else.
We have the right to keep and bear arms...nothing says we have to.*
Andy

*Please note ...do not read into this statement...
I do not want this right to be amended , prohibited , abolished etc..
I think that if you are a law abiding US citizen you should be able to own the firearms of your choice , with the least amount of fuss , of any kind.
Or have the choice not to own any...
 
Excellent questions "Z", I'm interested to hear some sound and equally sensible answers from those within the academic side...

Minus of course, the loud emotional responses...
 
I don't know if teachers are afraid of guns as much as they are afraid of consequences standing out. I know a family member who is a teacher and owns firearms. He keeps the later a deep state secret as we had discussed, not only do they never want the word Gun uttered in schools if you are a teacher that owns one, you basically wont get hired. I found across this nation many teacher are in the same spot. Lets face it teachers are not stupid, but they are heavenly influenced by public opinion. Mind you he lived in California.
There are allot of times teachers are bullied into submission or worse.
Case in point here in Roseburg a coach on a women basketball team at the highschool came under fire for being too aggressive in motivation, well some parent didnt like the aggressive nature and filed a complaint. The coach was cleared by the investigators, the faculty leadership and principle. However the one lone Roseburg School Administrator in their own wisdom after speaking with the parent choose to override everyone and fired her.
Teachers are afraid of consequences not just the firearms its self. We have raised a group of Mom and Dads in this country that a whinning bubblegumy complainers who think their kid getting an F means they fire the teacher, they don't suspend the kid cutting class an not doing homework. WE CREATED THIS MESS GUNS DIDNT.
 
Here's what I've been up against. The commenters are either teachers or teachers' family members:

Commenter #1: "I was about to say this is an absolutely terrible idea for teachers. Adding one more thing to their already overwhelming load is just going to lead to even lower educational performance. At this point I think a ban on assault weapons is needed. If that means only the criminals have guns, great, it will make it a lot easier to tell who the criminals are.

At this point I think we need to scrap the second amendment and recognize that our society relies too heavily on firearms for a false sense of security. They are as ineffective and dangerous as the TSA checkpoints in airports. If making it very hard to get a personal killing machine makes someone feel unsafe then I have to question whether that person will ever feel safe, and whether it is a positive benefit to society to cater to that weakness. To me the risk of having access to high capacity magazines and assault weapons completely outweighs any non-hypothetical benefits."

Me: "Carrying your logic to its ultimate conclusion we should disarm our police, perhaps just disband our police departments and simply hope that we are not targets of crime."

Commenter #1: "Not sure what you mean. I am saying that our guns don't actually protect us from the crimes that most impact us and create the environment in which blue collar crime becomes more likely. The logic that I use says if you haven't hit your target with the first few shots you don't need more bullets, you need more practice. I also think private citizens don't need assault rifles. I was being a bit hyperbolic, but I am talking about private citizens owning assault rifles. I do think we need to disarm most of the police, and that lethal force by agents of the state towards its own citizens is a bad idea. It isn't like the police are doing that well with the application of lethal force being used as a last resort and are instead approaching most situations ready to kill. At the minimum, police need to not be allowed to carry firearms for their first two years so that they don't get into the habit of approaching every situation with lethal force. The whole problem with the logic behind the "good guy with a gun" theory is that it assumes you can tell who the good guy is by looking at them. How many more students will have to die because a small part of our society has decided they want to have assault weapons? The very least that could be done is to provide state issued firearms licenses that include full nationwide background checks you are required to have in order to legally own or buy a gun, with specific endorsements for varying weapon types and concealed carry. Any firearm would include a title of ownership which is registered with the state. If we have to do this with cars, why not do it with an item which is solely designed to kill?"

Commenter #2: "The Sheriff was trained and trained some more and he froze. This is another bad idea from the president. Teachers will lay down their lives to protect their charges, but they are not security guards. Schools don't have money for supplies or to repair leaking roofs. Where are they going to get the money for weapons, training and additional pay? Do you think the presidents or his minions are going to give up their tax breaks for this additional expense to public education? Instead of giving $30M to the president do you think the NRA will pay for this for let's say 50 years?"

Commenter #3: "I'm not for scraping the 2nd amendment, but I am For adjusting it to bring it into line with the realities of our times. I don't think banning all firearms is a great idea, but I do believe in banning the type of weapons that are being used. I see no practical use for the AR style of rifle. We have to begin to unravel this issue somewhere. We've already spent way to long paralyzed in discussions about it, all arguments aside, I think it's clear that doing nothing is only escalating the problem. I'm willing to let a higher court define which weapons need to be banned, and I'm willing to submit to that ruling. We don't need that type of weapon for home or personal defense. I know some believe it's about protecting themselves against our own government. If it ever came to that, it's all lost anyway. Access to AR style weapons is just too easy. I tested that fact here locally where I live. For $725 and an hour of my time I can have my very own AR 15 and two 30 round magazines. For another 60 bucks or so at the "special" weapons store, I can get two 50 round magazines. That makes me real nervous."

But there's hope..

Commenter #4: "The last three public mass shootings have all come down to mental health issues. I could go on and on and on with a list regarding the mental health issues of at least a dozen other cases. Schizoaffective disorders borderline personality disorders straight-up schizophrenia, disassociate disorders just to name a few. This kid that was most recently in the news, was so severely traumatized by the time he was five his limbic system never had a chance. He disassociated from reality he picked an alternate one there you go. It didn't matter who had the guns locked up the kid decided on a course of action.

There are always going to be lethal options available to those who decide they want to use them. It may not be a gun instead they'll drop half a gram of weaponized anthrax in a city's water supply.

In fact, Surprised actually no one thought of that yet. Pardon me big brother if you're watching know I have no such intentions. But seriously..."
 
Zeke, with all due respect, my wife who has taught middle school learning disabilities for 35 years or so is not afraid of guns - as a matter of fact (and I am not kidding) right now there is a S&W revolver next to the vase of flowers on the table in the living room.

But, she signed up to be a teacher and that is what she does and she has her hands full doing just that. Knowing her, she will shield her students from harm but her responsibilities do not include carrying a weapon to kill or wound another person. Other teachers may carry and that is fine; most do not want to, nor would they be very useful.

Again, with respect, if you want your child absolutely safe then homeschool him/her - lacking that, do what you can to harden your child's school.
 
Speaking only for myself...
I am a teacher and I am not afraid of guns.
I am willing to carry at school to defend my students , others and myself.

That said when a teacher is asked to carry they are also being asked if they can:
Shoot a current student...
Shoot a former student...
Shoot a student that they teach , have taught , or care for...
Shoot a student in front of other students...

This is a lot to ask of some people.
I have been in combat and have shot and killed the enemy...I know of others who have been in combat and could not make themselves shoot at strangers who were shooting at them....
To ask someone to shoot a kid that they know and as I said care for....is a important decision that they need to make...and not everyone will be able to do so.

Should teachers be armed?....
Maybe...it depends on the teacher...just like everyone else.
We have the right to keep and bear arms...nothing says we have to.*
Andy

*Please note ...do not read into this statement...
I do not want this right to be amended , prohibited , abolished etc..
I think that if you are a law abiding US citizen you should be able to own the firearms of your choice , with the least amount of fuss , of any kind.
Or have the choice not to own any...
Andy,

I appreciate your clarity and your stance. I know how difficult it can be to be a pro-gun educator. I do not include you in those I was speaking to. You would be one of my shining examples of teachers who love their kids enough to volunteer for something like this program. Thank you.
 
@ZigZagZeke I wish you well, tried having open communications as you speak on these forums, and eventually they become one sided usually far right and the conversation ends and they get deleted or closed. No disrespect to you or NWFA, but its not a place for such discussions in my experiance. I could count maybe 12 topics that were closed on this forum alone in the last year I started simply trying to talk openly about these problems and talking with others. I live down the road from the UCC shooting and no one cares what means to live with that in your own town so I now speak elsewhere.
The issues are that Gun sites and Firearms forums are supported by the very far right often because these people have huge stock piles of everything and its not just living with a firearms its a way of life for them, its like telling someone to stop drinking water, it wont happen.
I do hope this topic stays open for awhile. I don't think not one of mine survived I have since learned this was not the place to make a stand so I am doing things away from tradition firearms sites as by design firearms sites are not diverse enough to have tolerance for opposite opposing views to our own demise it seems. I for one am sick and tired of watching laws pass and people die and yet we scream we wont compromise..(BS)............ Really when schools are being shot up by nut jobs and we lose rights every year. Its a comprise whether its volunteer or not. But even if they wont survive here work is being done and progress made wish it could be shared in these forums but its like a death sentence to even bring it up. Lucky for me i'm too old to care what other people think, I try and do whats right and good for myself my family and our future. Thats my opinion.
 
Andy,

I appreciate your clarity and your stance. I know how difficult it can be to be a pro-gun educator. I do not include you in those I was speaking to. You would be one of my shining examples of teachers who love their kids enough to volunteer for something like this program. Thank you.
Thank you Zeke for your understanding of my post* and of me.
Andy
* it was a difficult one to write on many levels...
 
I think there is a simple answer to t his. Get rid of gun free zones and leave the option to the teacher if he or she wants to carry, and not just the teacher, the janitor, admins, the dude cutting the grass.. anyone who has a CC license and feels like they could respond to the threat and not wet themselves like that deputy.
 
@ZigZagZeke I wish you well, tried having open communications as you speak on these forums, and eventually they become one sided usually far right and the conversation ends and they get deleted or closed. No disrespect to you or NWFA, but its not a place for such discussions in my experiance. I could count maybe 12 topics that were closed on this forum alone in the last year I started simply trying to talk openly about these problems and talking with others. I live down the road from the UCC shooting and no one cares what means to live with that in your own town so I now speak elsewhere.
The issues are that Gun sites and Firearms forums are supported by the very far right often because these people have huge stock piles of everything and its not just living with a firearms its a way of life for them, its like telling someone to stop drinking water, it wont happen.
I do hope this topic stays open for awhile. I don't think not one of mine survived I have since learned this was not the place to make a stand so I am doing things away from tradition firearms sites as by design firearms sites are not diverse enough to have tolerance for opposite opposing views to our own demise it seems. I for one am sick and tired of watching laws pass and people die and yet we scream we wont compromise..(BS)............ Really when schools are being shot up by nut jobs and we lose rights every year. Its a comprise whether its volunteer or not. But even if they wont survive here work is being done and progress made wish it could be shared in these forums but its like a death sentence to even bring it up. Lucky for me i'm too old to care what other people think, I try and do whats right and good for myself my family and our future. Thats my opinion.
I appreciate your advice and your thinking. Closed or not, eventually, this thread needed to be opened. We are being compromised daily, whether we like it or not. Maybe it's time to demand something back for those unstoppable compromises. As Mr. Pollack said in his comments about his murdered daughter, this is a different argument from gun laws. This is about what else we can do. Gun laws will happen, and we can't stop all of them. Let's take the argument elsewhere. Let's harden schools, arm school employees, make sure the NICS actually works as intended, and find a way to deal with dangerously crazy people before they kill anybody. Kids' lives are more important than being right.
 
Zeke, with all due respect, my wife who has taught middle school learning disabilities for 35 years or so is not afraid of guns - as a matter of fact (and I am not kidding) right now there is a S&W revolver next to the vase of flowers on the table in the living room.

But, she signed up to be a teacher and that is what she does and she has her hands full doing just that. Knowing her, she will shield her students from harm but her responsibilities do not include carrying a weapon to kill or wound another person. Other teachers may carry and that is fine; most do not want to, nor would they be very useful.

Again, with respect, if you want your child absolutely safe then homeschool him/her - lacking that, do what you can to harden your child's school.
Nobody said a teacher should be required to carry...Nobody, including President Trump, has suggested that. That unreasonable assumption has been propagated by some teachers and their unions.
 
I think if a teacher wants to, and is qualified, they should have the right to.

Is the teacher being asked to shoot a current/former student in front of other students? Asked to? No. Volunteering for? Yes. Recall what Kipling wrote in Captains Courageous, that "one volunteer was worth five hirelings." The Broward Cowards might disagree on the number, but the concept is valid.

Equal rights for teachers.




P
 
I'm a teacher. I'm "gun adept". I'm trained. I'm a skilled USPSA competitor. I love my students. If in the situation that required it, I would die for my students.

I would rather be able to kill an attacker dead by my own hand.
 
As far as Im concerned, If the teacher, coach, janitor or whoever has a valid CHL, they should be able to carry. Period. Thank you @CHLChris and @AndyinEverson....

If I can carry at a school why shouldnt the staff be able to? Boggles my mind. I cant carry at work due to "government policy" but any random azz citizen can walk into our building, LEGALLY with a firearm, but I cant??? I dont get it....

Edit: I should clarify that I cant carry ON the job, but if I have business there as a normal citizen, I can....how does that make sense?
 
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The Teachers and their Unions were the First to jump all over the Bandwagon when the talk was about making Schools into "Gun Free Zones". Now, They're wanting more restrictions placed on the Law Abiding Citizens saying that these "Common Sense" gun laws are the "Answer". These are the same reasons they used for the "Gun Free Zones". And look where things are.:mad::mad::mad:
 
How about making laws that require more than simply posting a sign to qualify as a "gun free" zone?
Perhaps require "gun free" locations to meet safety standards to protect people in it, because after all, that location has required them to relinquish their right to protect themselves and should therefore assume the responsibility. A "gun free" sign shouldn't be used like a "no swimming" sign is often used, to avoid paying a lifeguard.

We inspect kitchens for cleanliness and commercial buildings for fire safety.
We should License and inspect gun free zones.
 
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@ZigZagZeke I am with you! I had a conversation this past week about changing the second amendment. I was so pissed when we were done.

The madness has to stop our children's lives are at stake. I feel for the generations to come and what they will have to deal with if we are dealing with this now. :(
 
Insane people are not going to give a sh!t whether there are gun free zone signs or not so claiming the signs welcome attackers is not accurate, IMO.
 
@ZigZagZeke
You are correct there needs to be a conversation I think that he said it very well.
I do disagree that this is not a Democrat - Republican issue however as we can talk until the cows come home and as long as we wont talk with Democrats or think they are not able to help we will rinse and repeat. Its them whom are in power, not us. Its not been us for along time. If we can not reach across the isle on firearms issues and find a compromise on school shootings we will be compromising lives. I don't care if its a dark government action, or planned or their are hired actors to portray grieving loved ones. Not one more life should end just because we want what we want.
The next election will be here soon enough if we do not do something to control the outcome it will be chosen for us. That isle is right there to reach across and discuss...........about time we did something rather then just act pissed off.
 

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