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Another open carry confrontation....
Another open carry confrontation....
Gun advocates claim police violated rights
They want apology from Marysville
By STEPHEN TAIT
Times Herald
To Rob Harris, his Smith and Wesson Sigma 9mm handgun might as well be a pair of Nikes.
The 36-year-old Eastpointe resident said strapping a holster and handgun to his waist is simply a part of his routine.
"I open-carry everywhere I go," he said. "It is like putting on a pair of shoes to me. We have the right to protect ourselves. ... I feel it is a deterrent to crime."
But Harris' habit of carrying a firearm led to a confrontation last week with Marysville police officers, who stopped him and his friend, Scott Webb, as they walked near a city park during Marysville Days. Webb carries a Smith and Wesson M&P .40-caliber handgun.
Harris and Webb, 31 and a former Marysville resident, said they were mistreated by Assistant Chief Ron Buckmaster and are demanding disciplinary action and a written apology.
A recording of the confrontation between Buckmaster and the two men reveals a heated conversation in which the officer forced the two men to leave the park for openly carrying holstered firearms.
Joy Yearout, spokeswoman for the Michigan attorney general's office, said anyone who is not a felon can openly carry a holstered handgun. If it is concealed, the person must have a concealed-weapons permit -- something both Harris and Webb have.
There are several places where carrying a gun openly is not legal, Yearout said, but that list does not include city parks. It does include places such as schools, banks and churches.
Stroll in the park
Harris and Webb, 31, of Roseville, said they were in the area to visit a local shooting range. Harris said they got some dinner afterward, and then Webb wanted to show him the city park.
They went to the park, saw a carnival was in progres for Marysville Days and walked around the property.
As they were walking away from the park -- along River Street, which was closed to traffic for the event -- they walked behind two uniformed police officers and a person in civilian clothing who turned out to be Buckmaster.
Harris said Buckmaster turned to them, noticed they were carrying guns and told them they had to leave.
"It became a battle of what is right and what his opinion was," Harris said. "Everything this officer said to me was just wrong. And to not know the law in his position is just scary."
Maryville Chief Tim Buelow said the situation started out as a question of whether the park was private or public, because a carnival was under way.
But an audio recording -- made by the two men during the confrontation -- does not indicate any argument on that subject. It captured only Buckmaster's contention that the location was city property.
Buelow said he confirmed the next day the land was still considered public, meaning that Webb and Harris were allowed to carry their weapons.
Buelow said he received a copy of the recording and he has "dealt with that issue."
He wouldn't comment on whether Buckmaster acted appropriately or whether he has been disciplined.
"I'm not going to second-guess my officers on the street," he said. "Audio and video can sometimes not tell the whole story."
Buelow said no complaints were made about Harris and Webb before the confrontation.
Buelow said he sent a memo to the department detailing how open-carry issues should be handled, but would not provide a copy of the instructions or say what they were.
He also said officers will be trained further on the open-carry law during upcoming training regarding firearms.
"The average public doesn't realize -- and many officers don't realize -- that open-carry is legal in Michigan," he said. "It is a training issue, and we are working on that."
Webb and Harris said it is the chief's job to properly train his officers. Webb added: "It is a sad thing (if officers don't know the law). Open-carry has always been allowed in Michigan."
Buelow said the law can generate difficult situations for police. For example, he said, if police get calls reporting a "man with a gun," they don't know what to expect.
Jack Schumacher, city manager, said he was made aware of the issue but would not comment, saying "it could be a legal issue."
A confrontation
The nearly 6-minute audio clip -- posted on YouTube -- reveals a back-and-forth exchange among the two men and the assistant chief.
The clip starts with Buckmaster asking the two men to leave for the "health and safety" of people in the park.
Webb and Harris respond that he doesn't have the right to do that and that they are allowed to carry their firearms.
"Well, you know what, then, you can sue me," Buckmaster responds. "I don't care."
Police officers then ask the two men for their identification, which the men say they don't need to provide. The officers say they want identification so they can know if the two are felons.
Webb and Harris maintain they do not have to provide identification because they had done nothing wrong.
Buckmaster repeatedly asks the men to leave the area or put the guns in the trunks of their vehicles. But the men reply they do not have to because it is legal to openly carry them.
At one point, the men ask Buckmaster what Michigan law they are breaking. Buckmaster responds by saying, "you know what, you can take your mumbo jumbo ..."
"Mumbo jumbo," Webb says. "That's your rule book?"
Buckmaster at several points threatens arrest if Harris and Webb do not leave.
Webb and Harris ask under what law they would be arrested. Buckmaster replies disorderly conduct. He adds the men were disorderly because they won't provide identification.
"You step back here in with the guns and you are going to jail," Buckmaster says.
"Under what law?" Harris asks.
"I just told you, disorderly," the officer says.
"Disorderly? You are just going to make that up?" Harris says.
"Yup," Buckmaster responds.
Later, Buckmaster says: "I don't know what your big thing is. You want to be a big man out here, walk around with a gun on your hip. Oh, I'm cool."
"It's legal," Harris responds. "It is no different than you wearing a hat or me wearing this collared shirt."
"Bull----," Buckmaster yells. "That shirt and this hat can't kill somebody."
"But your hands couldn't kill somebody?" Harris asks. "It's no different."
"I'm not going to debate the issue. ... It's time to leave," Buckmaster says.
Buckmaster continues, apparently to another officer: "You see these two on the property ... with handguns -- they're going to jail."
Toward the end of the clip, the point of identification re-emerges.
"If I give you my ID and prove that I'm not a felon, can I carry here?" Harris asks.
"No," Buckmaster says.
"So, what's the difference then?" Harris says.
"Nothing," Buckmaster says. "So, just leave."
Webb and Harris said they left the area because they did not want to be arrested. They said they went to their vehicle, but before leaving called Michigan State Police in fear Maryville police would hassle them while leaving town.
An education
The next day, Harris said, he called Buelow and talked about the situation. He then went to the police station to file an official complaint. He said no forms were available, and the chief was not in the office.
Buelow said complaints are handled by the next highest-ranking officer. In this case, if a complaint were filed, he would take the complaint.
Webb and Harris want an apology from Buckmaster and for the assistant chief to be punished. However, as of Wednesday, the two had not filed an official complaint.
Webb and Harris are members of Michigan Open Carry Inc. They said they often speak at events and sports stores about the open-carry law.
The men say they carry guns not to be provocative but because it is their right and a form of protection.
They will return to the park from 1 to 6 p.m. June 27 for a picnic with friends. They said they also plan to carry their handguns.
"It is a huge crime deterrent," Webb said. "Hopefully, the only time it has to come off of me is when I get home and go to bed at night.
"We don't take this lightly."
The two said education is important because many people do not know that carrying firearms openly is allowed and others may be too afraid to carry guns for fear of being harassed.
"A lot of guys don't know the law and they are afraid to exercise their rights," Webb said. "It's a sad thing."
