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Only a totalitarian state disarms law-abiding citizens: we want no more oppressive gu

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Andy, Jun 7, 2010.

  1. Andy

    Andy Aurora, OR Active Member

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  2. mr11b

    mr11b Portland, OR Member

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    Good find, thanks for sharing :thumbup:
     
  3. Cougfan2

    Cougfan2 Hillsboro, OR Well-Known Member

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    Excellent article. It is pretty much assumed that once you pass a gun law you will never get it off the books. The UK could be an interesting test case in the next few years, as Chicago, and DC here in the states, to see if it is actually possible to put part of the gun control genie back in the bottle.

    Interesting times.
     
  4. oregonshooter

    oregonshooter AMERICA Member

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    Besides a regime change (usually hostile) can anyone show me in history where oppressors gave rights back?
     
  5. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

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    Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia, South Africa, Kuwait, Turkey, Nicaragua, arguably the USSR and satellite states, because the new regimes were run by the same old party hacks, I'm sure plenty of others that I can't think of.

    It's not the regular way of things, but it happens more frequently than you might expect.


    This doesn't moderate the horror of totalitarian government one bit... just is what it is.
     
  6. oregonshooter

    oregonshooter AMERICA Member

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    A change in name only is still a regime change. We do it every 8 years on average with Dem/Rep.

    All those you mention did not give rights back that I know of, a regime change gave them back, no?
     
  7. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

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    The totalitarian Sandanistas in Nicaragua voluntarily called for elections and peacefully handed over power to a democratically elected government. In South Korea, the dictator who gave into demands for free elections was actually reelected. That nation has been a democracy ever sense.

    I could go on and on, but it would be pointless: you're splitting hairs in an unsuccessful attempt to make a point that isn't relevant to this thread in the first place.

    You asked someone to name a time "in history where oppressors gave rights back," and I did. End of story.
     
  8. oregonshooter

    oregonshooter AMERICA Member

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    ZachS,
    Thanks for the history lesson. I wasn't trying to cut hairs, just ignorant of the history. I guess UK has a chance after all! :D

    PS. Based on history... what odds do you give them of having gun rights again?
     
  9. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

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    If and when the British decide they want them. The UK is a thriving democracy, and gun control is extremely popular there. Their country, their choice, as dumb of a choice it is.
     
  10. oregonshooter

    oregonshooter AMERICA Member

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    So you are saying the "majority" want gun control in the UK?

    I was under the impression that slow erosion (by a ruling minority) was why they ended up without their rights, not unlike the path the USA is on?
     
  11. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

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    What do you think would happen here if our media was five times as hysterical about mass shootings and gun crimes than it actually is... and gun ownership for non-sporting purposes was very uncommon? If there was a bigger clamor for gun control than there was in the 80's and 90's, but the NRA was a small fraction of its actual size?

    We'd be in the same position, and probably feel the same way as they do. But we're not, and we don't. Media hysteria here is kept down to a dull roar, half of American households own a gun, and the right-to-bear-arms lobby is one of the most powerful in Washington.

    Different cultures, different results.

    Many in the UK now want to ban pointed kitchen knives and replace them with things like these. I tried to have a conversation with a British friend of mine about that, and she wouldn't hear in for a minute - she thought it was a fantastic idea.

    In democracies, people get the governments and the laws they deserve.


    What I'm most trying to get at here is that generalizations like the OP's (and yours earlier) are usually incorrect, even when they're based on the kernel of truth. If we want to understand how these things happen, we're better off scrutinizing that kernel in detail than simply grabbing a handful of popcorn.
     
  12. oregonshooter

    oregonshooter AMERICA Member

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    So why are they waking up now instead of before? I'd love to hear an outline on why the UK is where it is now and why that will not happen in the USA?

    I remember not long ago when all the Brits turned in their non-hunting guns. True they didn't have the love affair with them like Americans, but they didn't all start out as a nation of shotguns only.

    PS. I read about those a few months ago. Brainwashing makes anything believable. Seems the more outlandish the idea, the easier to convince.
     
  13. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

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    At the end of the day, the lack of a love affair was the reason. If fewer people have a vested interest in shooting, fewer people will fight against gun control measures.

    The linked article is simply one man's opinion published in one of Britain's most conservative newspapers. It does not reflect mainstream British opinion.

    The Brits also have no real constitutional right to bear arms. The Bill of Rights of 1689 the author refers to not only has a weaker self-defense provision than ours - "That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law," but that document is not analogous to our Bill of Rights: British constitutional law is very, very different than ours.

    We certainly shouldn't stop being vigilant, but vigilance doesn't encompass believing everything we hear about supposed threats to our liberties.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2010
  14. 56kninja

    56kninja Portland Member

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    Most people I've talked to or met from Britain either didn't mind or approved of gun control.

    I don't think we will lose gun rights in the USA, because we have a population that I find generally favors it, and groups that fight like wolverines to maintain it.