On the sheepdog mentality

[8ball]

I imagine this senerio:

24 hour quicky mart gas station. I'm in back looking for something to quench my thirst (I love gatorade) because I've been on the road for a long time. Armed robber runs in, points a gun at the clerk, and demands cash. I'd probably cover, draw, and then yell "PUT THE GUN DOWN!". What happens next is up to the robber. If he turns the gun on me I'll drop him.

So he turns on you, raises the gun and you drop him, to find out he was wielding an airsoft pistol?

Even if the robber was armed, it could be tough to justify a homicide in the scenario described. It's way outside of castle doctrine. You might get away with it in Texas. RCW 9A.16.110 might help you in WA but it would be ugly.

 

[phathom]

8ball, keep in mind, what a jury looks at when saying it was self defense or homicide.
Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy.

They decide based on facts you had at that time, not found out after. Had it been an airsoft with the orange tip painted or broken off to appear as a real pistol, that would satisfy the ability. The fact that he raised the gun at you would satisfy the jeopardy,and him having to had pointed a gun (regardless of what it is, if it appears to a normal person in the same situation) at him, after he told him to drop the gun, would definitely be opportunity.

If it was found after the fact it was an airsoft gun, it doesn't change the fact the guy was robbing the store with it, and using it in a threatening manner and implying it was a real gun.

There would definitely be some hurdles here, but no more than what would be in a normal (if there is such a thing) case of this nature.

 

[spengo]

So he turns on you, raises the gun and you drop him, to find out he was wielding an airsoft pistol?

Even if the robber was armed, it could be tough to justify a homicide in the scenario described. It's way outside of castle doctrine. You might get away with it in Texas. RCW 9A.16.110 might help you in WA but it would be ugly.

If I can't immediately tell it's an airsoft and it's pointed at me, I'm shooting. Somehow I doubt a jury will convict you for that but even if they do, it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, amirite?

 

[biggie24420]

So if ur found not guilty in the criminal court......can u still be sued for wronfull death? And do u guys think that there might be some jury memberas who are ignarent towards guns ( u know the anti gun people, people who want society to not have guns)? If so i think that would be a big thing against u...... also does anyone know if u have to warn the person with a PUT THE WEAPON DOWN….? For example if i c someone pointing a gun at a clerk or a LEO....can i just drop them? Because that person can just shoot the clerk or LEO and try to shoot u next......

 

[Deavis]

Lots of insightful thinking here. I wonder if everyone cared about their neighbor if we would have any violence at all. I see sheep/victims constantly and would not hesitate to save them..... seems wrong not to. Would you let a toddler drown in a wading pool while wearing a life jacket?

Stand up and do what is right.....

Best self behavorial check is to imagine the three people you respect most... looking at what you're are about to do... or not do... and then do it. If I am not around, feel free to kill an active shooter before they kill my kids at school( If I am around either get in the stack or start applying pressure bandages).

And if you dont try, dont blame me for spitting on you (or worse) with your CHL nice and safe across the street.

 

[timbernet]

Would you let a toddler drown in a wading pool while wearing a life jacket?

Apples and Oranges -- saving a toddler from drowning won't likely put me in a civil suit case... using deadly force will.

Threat of a civil suit does not discourage me from protecting myself and those close to me, but a stranger? eh... it slows me down...

feel free to kill an active shooter before they kill my kids at school

In a case like active shooter at a school, I would engage the shooter. No question there. But there are many cases, especially when walking downtown, etc - where I may not know all the players in the argument. I might "think" that I know who the victim is, but I might not be 100% sure --- that is where I will really stay away from engaging. If I am not 100% of the situation or if I know that I cannot safely engage without jeopardizing additional lives, then I won't.


A scenario I think of often is my workplace... My department is away from the action -- so if a shooter entered the building, they would shoot at the 2nd and 3rd floor (main entrance is on 2nd floor, 1st floor where I am at is just employee parking).

So I hear gun shots going off - what are my options? I can exit the building in 10 seconds and make it to my car in 20 seconds. Then call the cops (located less than .75 miles away) and stay safe. OR, I can get the cops on the line (likely they have already been called thanks to silent alarms, etc) -- and then draw a weapon that I, *cough*, "do not have with me", *cough* and find and take care of the shooter. I like a fair number of the people I work with -- most of them are in my department and we could all get out, but a few are in other parts of the building. Could I leave them there when I am potentially capable of stopping the shooting? Most likely not. Legally... I am allowed to have a gun where I work (not a private company) -- but I would lose my job for having a gun with me... (case has been tried in Medford to get that overturned, no joy) -- I am single with no family to support, so losing my job would be acceptable to me for saving a bunch of people.

 

[SSG]

I have chosen to find some nobility, grace, and a higher human existance during my very short time here...

If the venue that day for me to be a 'better human being' means taking down a terrorist walking into a pre-school...so be it...because hiding from afar, watching the horror unfold alongside the other pussies, just doesn't work for me.

 

[8ball]

So if ur found not guilty in the criminal court......can u still be sued for wronfull death?

You can and will be sued in a civil court. Just ask OJ Simpson.

October 3, 1995 - criminal jury verdict of not guilty for the two murders

February 5, 1997 - a civil jury in Santa Monica, California unanimously found Simpson liable, to the tune of $33.5m. They also seized his income from book rights etc, and tried to seize his house and pension but failed because he lived in Florida at the time.

'Active shooter' in a school is one thing, and I agree there is a moral duty to protect the innocent. A holdup at a gas station? Borderline in my opinion.

 

[Father of four]

There was a time when Men did the Right Thing and didn't worry about what might happen later. It was dishonorable and disgraceful to turn away from a person in a life or death situation to save ones self. Now these days some of the men run away and cower when they know they should be helping. My Dad, my Grandpa and my Father in law were real men. I think the Men of this world need to remember how a Real Man should act if needed. Doing the right thing is what Real Men do! If we have to be spit on, put in prison and or die then so be it.

 

[The Quiet Man]

Danged, if we don't have our panties in a bunch over this subject. What began as a general discussion about the role of concealed carry folks in protecting the sheep rather quickly morphed into a mess. Some of us opined that we did not view ourselves as junior police officers and had priorities as to who and when we would protect. I have not seen anyone, including me, say we wouldn't help stangers in a true life threatening situation. Of course, some "no brainer" senarios were inserted to confuse things. Then God and the Marine Corps got into it. Pretty soon it was completely focused on uncontrolled murder, mayhem, and absolute no-brainer situations where we all agree that we would jump in. However, now anyone who earilier stated that they may not want to play policeman to society is being called a coward and threatened with being spit upon (or worse) because we would let school shooters kill kids. Where the h*ll is this stuff coming from?

Take a pill. Chill. Read what was said earilier in the proper context. I don't think there is much disagreement on the subject, other than at what point we would "engage" to protect a sheep in a NON life-threatening situation.

 

[Father of four]

My point is there are waaaaaay to many laws that are out to hurt the man who steps in to help another person. It should not be that way. There are to many people on here who would seem to me that their first instinct would be to sum up their possible legal outcome before helping someone in need. That is the way we are trained to act these days I guess. If we do something to defend ourselves or another we can be sued, OK. But I think we have crossed over the line of looking out for other peoples well being to looking out for #1. Like o'well with another life if helping them could cause me difficulties. Be it while using a firearm or any weapon.

 

[SSG]

I think as one becomes more 'evolved' one finds he is just so different from the rest that it becomes hard to relate with them, much less forgive them for their ignorance, lack of education, lack of trying, ect...

That said, it becomes hard to 'save' people who really don't want nor try to be saved...so let Darwin step in...

All that said, I personally don't have the sensibilities to sit back and watch a slaughter but I might just watch with amusement as cops and robbers shoot it out...they both chose to be there..

I can't tell you given the billion scenarios and actors involved what I would do, I have to make a decision there, at that time...but sitting here in front of the laptop, I think if a school bus full of Playboy Playmates was about to be shot up by terrorists...yes I would take the bad guys down. :thumbup

 

[wichaka]

If one is too worried about criminal action and/or civil liability...me thinks one shouldn't be carrying a gun.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I have always kind of hated the whole "sheepdog or a sheep" mindset. The main reason is that a lot of people that consider themselves a "sheepdog" are usually more coyote than they are sheepdog. So many people that pull that sheepdog crap are actually people with issues that make them feel the need to feel more powerful and better than the average person. Usually these feelings stem from aggressive disorders and inferiority issues.

However, that is not always the case. There are some people that truly do fit the sheepdog image. These are people that would never look for a fight and would actively avoid one. They also feel no need to stand out in a crown or feel superior to anyone else. They are simply the type of person that has that little part of their brain that makes them act when they are needed. They are the type of person that could not live with themselves if they did not do all they could to protect an innocent person. They would be ashamed to have looked out for number one if innocents were harmed because of their inaction. Not because of what others might think, but because they actually care about others.

So it all comes down to the person and not the label. Because labels are often misleading...especially when they are labels one assigns to themselves.

 

[Kimber Custom]

Well said PBP

 

[The B]

for being short pages, they sure are long around here.

announcing your presence/giving the perp the opportunity to surrender sounds great and all, but if you read examples of actual good-samaritan/self-defense shootings where the "good guy" did this, you'll find they usually just end up getting shot. fact of the matter is, the bad guy can turn, see you, drive his pistol around and fire at you faster than you can "drop him." it's part action-reaction, and part you-have-absolutely-no-CLUE-how-many-rounds-it-will-take-to-"drop"-him. both of these work against you, and for the bad guy.

if you're gonna take action at all, history has shown that immediately opening fire is the best method for self-preservation. shoot him in the back, if it's a good-samaritan shoot, or shoot him in the chest if it's self-defense... whatever the case, just shoot him.

as to the comment about airsoft- doesn't matter. he could be holding an origami paper gun.. so long as you can articulate that you were in fear for your life or somebody elses', it's gonna be a good shoot. check your local laws.

---

as to the OP's question about sheepdoggery.... lame. you're not a "sheepdog," you're a regular joe. i just hate that phrase, like we're closet heros, just walking around waiting for opportunity to come out and show the world our golden S.

i do feel that it's any man's obligation to intervene on the behalf of "innocents." you don't need a title to do your duty as a human being.

 

[torpedoman]

depends a lot on what is happening,someone holding up a 7-11 and just taking the money and leaving, he has my blessing, the chain will not allow their people to be armed so why should i help them?Acting wild , waving a gun or knife threating other people in the area robbing private citizens well then it is a different story.