Old Vs. New - What is the better bear defense?

[RMc]

In smaller gauges rifled slug fragmentation problems become pronounced. In this example, twenty gauge #3B*, (.25" diameter and 24 grains per pellet), exhibited greater penetration in the test medium than a 5/8th ounce Remington 20 gauge rifled slug:

The Box O' Truth #22 - 20 Gauge Shotgun - The Box O' Truth


*#3B Eastern is also known as #9 Western Buckshot.

 

[j8tnub]

.357 SIG or 10mm would be my choice. Most of the time though I am carrying to defend mys of from the 2 legged creatures.

 

[DeanMk]

This is why:

View attachment 424025

Yes, Foster Slugs, aka Rifled Slugs, are essentially hollow and nose heavy. Think of a Lead Thimble.

Ok, guys, sorry about that one.
The reason for my....rant? is because I remember reading an article on the Foster slug many years ago.
The Foster is supposedly inspired by the Minie' ball design and was created as a round ball (which was in common use at the time) with a skirt attached. The skirt was supposed to act like the tail of a kite (or a badminton shuttlecock, as is the common analogy these days) and help accurize the ball.
It seems in the years since the Foster was created, manufacturers have deviated slightly from the original design.
...and to whomever debunked the "hollow point" found in the nose of current Foster slugs as so much marketing - YES! EXACTLY! Fill that stupid hole and give the slug a big flat nose to "slam" the intended target and add a little weight to the slug, at the same time (an extra 1/16 oz. will add about 156 ft./lbs. to the slug, given the same MV).


Dean

 

[RMc]

Ran across three tests on different, but common, over the counter smoothbore slug loads. The results were quite interesting - especially the radical expansion and limited penetration of the "hollow point" Winchester slug.


Winchester "hollow point" rifled slug penetration and expansion:


Slug test starts at frame 1:23

 

[RMc]

Federal "Deep Penetrator" with harder lead alloy construction:


Test begins at frame 1:19

 

[RMc]

The Rio Royal Brenneke is probably the most readily available slug of this type.
Note: The Brenneke design incorporates a harder lead alloy core with a "rifled" swaged on ring of soft lead.

Test begins at frame 0:45

 

[RMc]

Did you find the results of these rifled slug ballistic gel tests changed your perception of commonly available slug ammunition?

 

[DeanMk]

I've seen those tests before.
I looked at the Federal slug a bit differently after seeing that one, having the impression prior that it was so much marketing.
There's also a Taofledermaus video or two that includes the Federal slug with impressive results.
Here' some interesting videos showing what rifled slugs do against bulletproof glass....

Dean

 

[black coffee]

GOT TO BE THE WORST video ever. Her voice...good god blast it at high volume to scare away bears or any member of the opposite sex. I would use any caliber at this point on the speakers just to never hear that voice again.

10 mm is a great round and balance of some higher capacity and stopping power depending on your loads. Second choice would be 357 ... why? cause it is a classic found every where quality ammunition and apple pie is sold.

 

[RMc]

10 mm is a great round and balance of some higher capacity and stopping power depending on your loads. Second choice would be 357 ... why? cause it is a classic found every where quality ammunition and apple pie is sold.

Should you choose either caliber for defensive use against large predators, use heavy for caliber flat nose projectiles of hard cast - heat treated lead or flat nose monolithic solids. Each type is designed to give straight, deep penetration without expansion. Indeed, forget FPE, bullet expansion, or highest velocity for caliber. For example 125 grain JHP 357 Magnum or 135 grain JHP 10mm rounds simply don't have the penetration needed for this roll.

 

[RMc]

Oh yeah, if you decide to carry a big 12 bore with buckshot - use the biggest hard cast commercial buckshot made. Here is a comparison of a 3.5" 12 gauge 00B payload and the Dixie Slugs Co. three inch 12 gauge Tri-Ball buckshot payload of equal weight. This buckshot round will out penetrate a great majority of the 12 gauge slug loads on the market.

 

[coop44]

Pretty much anything will do. All you have to do is shoot your slower fatter hunting partner in the leg and run.

 

[RMc]

12 gauge slug

Alaska fish & Wildlife will confirm this

As noted in several posts, shotgun slugs are not a generic commodity.

 

[coop44]

Perhaps the question should be "where is the most vulnerable spot on a bear to concentrate my shot placement? Because I wouldn't want to just piss the bear off". Regardless of the caliber or gauge shot placement is what likely matters more than ballistic numbers. Bears have been taken with calibers considered by some here to be inadequate.

 

[RMc]

Colt .25ACP! Knee cap the old lady and mosey on down to the pub!

Pretty much anything will do. All you have to do is shoot your slower fatter hunting partner in the leg and run.

There always has to be one - in this case two - souls with a keyboard.

 

[DeanMk]

Perhaps the question should be "where is the most vulnerable spot on a bear to concentrate my shot placement? Because I wouldn't want to just piss the bear off". Regardless of the caliber or gauge shot placement is what likely matters more than ballistic numbers. Bears have been taken with calibers considered by some here to be inadequate.

Looks like the same spot you'd shoot a deer...



...slam that dude with some Buff. Bore 300 gr. JFP's. 1334MV out of a 5.5" Redhawk.
I like that.


Dean

 

[Pete F]

Looks like the same spot you'd shoot a deer...

View attachment 563592

...slam that dude with some Buff. Bore 300 gr. JFP's. 1334MV out of a 5.5" Redhawk.
I like that.


Dean

That is fine if the bear is broadside to you, but where do you shoot if he is charging - more of a problem.

 

[DeanMk]

Just below the base of the neck, between the legs.
That would be approximately the same area as the side view shot.
Of course, it depends on the angle of the bear's chest to you. If he's rearing up, then you're going to want to move your aim down more to the right side of the chest, but at least you have a picture in your head now to use as a reference.
From head-on, its not a big area and you'd be better off moving so you could get that side view shot, but if you're stuck where you're at, that's going to be about it.
...however, from what I've heard, up in Alaska, its not the bears that you should be wary of...its the moose.