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OIS and the 9mm round

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Some 25 + years ago, I was involved in my one & only OIS (officer involved shooting). The perp was a 3-striker headed back to prison for life. He was a Norteno shot-caller with a kilo of meth and nothing to lose. He was in a 78 Dodge Tradesman van, a small tank and some 28 rounds were fired and contained to the van. My point here is that 5 officers were involved and it was interesting to see the difference in the 9mm vs the 45 acp damage. While the 45 acp made huge holes in the sheet metal, most failed to penetrate much deeper than the door/dash area, the 9mm penetrated and continued into the perp.
While it was several rounds of unencumbered 9mm that did him in, I assuming due to the loss of energy that the 45 acp failed to penetrate beyond the sheet metal. I don't know all the stat's regarding the type of ammo save the one I was using. It was a HP sub-sonic round, I think it was a Speer 147 grain.
Now I know I pissed in some of y'alls Cheerios but this was an eye opener for me. Again, I disclose I'm not a ballistics expert, just found it interesting.
Now that's said, full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes.;)
 
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Though i love the 45, i think i would opt for the 40 in a duty round, never the 9. Likely any move back to the nine is driven by cost analysis, bean counters rule the world.
 
OP
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My old department is about to transition back to 9mm and G17's from 40's. Think they will still be giving options to those who wish to carry their own 40 and 45.
Our department traded in our P226 Sig's for Glocks 17's and 21's. I bought my Sig back and retired shortly after that transition. Our Sig's were getting old (20 years) and Glock offered to buy back all of our Sig's if we would switch. Love my Sig! I carry the P320 & P365 concealed now
 
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Though i love the 45, i think i would opt for the 40 in a duty round, never the 9. Likely any move back to the nine is driven by cost analysis, bean counters rule the world.
The .40 being generally offered in an originally designed 9mm gun leads to it beating itself to death prematurely so yea, that costs more.
 
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Exactly. We had the Glock 19's issued out at the Academy when they first came out. I think we had about 150 in our armory. Anyway, the rails started splitting after we ran 3 or 4 classes and Glock said the pushed through production to meet demand by using 9mm frames with 40 cal slides. Anyway, they replaced them all but that was kind of scary.
 

Ura-Ki

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.45 is often found to be lacking when it comes to penetrating sheet metal, it's a big slow moving round and the sheet metal tends to deform and dampen the energy mush faster! It would generally do the job with out having to go through the Sheet metal, and is the main reason it had lost favor with the LEO community! It works great as a man stopper, but that's in the open! 9 mm is moving a lot faster and has a smaller frontal area so it tends to punch through sheet metal better! The .40 kind of does well, but it gets caught up easier then the 9 mm! 10 MM does well across the board as it smashes through windshields and sheet metal!
 
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.45 is often found to be lacking when it comes to penetrating sheet metal, it's a big slow moving round and the sheet metal tends to deform and dampen the energy mush faster! It would generally do the job with out having to go through the Sheet metal, and is the main reason it had lost favor with the LEO community! It works great as a man stopper, but that's in the open! 9 mm is moving a lot faster and has a smaller frontal area so it tends to punch through sheet metal better! The .40 kind of does well, but it gets caught up easier then the 9 mm! 10 MM does well across the board as it smashes through windshields and sheet metal!
I think that Underwood penetrator round is pretty neat.. I wish you could get the components.
I've been loading the Lee 140gr SWC in the 9mm for about 40 years. It works pretty darn good on animals and is essentially free.
 
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.45 is often found to be lacking when it comes to penetrating sheet metal, it's a big slow moving round and the sheet metal tends to deform and dampen the energy mush faster! It would generally do the job with out having to go through the Sheet metal, and is the main reason it had lost favor with the LEO community! It works great as a man stopper, but that's in the open! 9 mm is moving a lot faster and has a smaller frontal area so it tends to punch through sheet metal better! The .40 kind of does well, but it gets caught up easier then the 9 mm! 10 MM does well across the board as it smashes through windshields and sheet metal!
But feeble wrists and 10mm don't mix.

Plus cops these days can barely use the 9mm!
 

Ura-Ki

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Nobody bashin on the .40!

I practice with it some times, good for doing high volume drills with out the snap and expense of full pop 10 mm!
Change out the recoil spring and i'm good to go!
 

bbbass

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Yeah, if we talkin LE duty rounds... I vote for 10mm or .38Super for those that can hack it.

For personal protection I'd still be carrying my double stack Para P14.45 if my arthritis would have let me practice/drill with it. I surely don't need to shoot thru a car door. But I'm down to 9mm now. Did not stop at .40, did not pass go. Mighta passed gas, not sure what that was. Check shorts. Speaking of shorts, next stop 9mm short or .22lr.... :eek::eek::eek: And maybe a soy latte, some skinny jeans, and a man-bun... How'd you like to see a 67yr old guy looking like that? On second thought, just shoot me!!!
 
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Back in the day the 9mm got a bad rap for good reason many units where using hard ball and it had an issue with over penetrating and not stopping. It did from what I understand the Germans designed it to do and that was wound a soldier requiring 2 more soldier to take him off the battle field tying up three folks.
I do not know if it worked that way but it was the idea.

Now today there are so many improvements in powder and bullets they have both the penetration and expansion to fit in a frame and recoil that more recruits can handle.

I have been a 9 fan for a long time and the fact it is way cheaper to shoot helps alot.

Edit: spelling
 
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targets.jpg

I seem to do alright with a 9mm @30 ft and rapid fire...LEFT: FN 509 RIGHT:Sig P320
 
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I used to be friends with a forensic pathologist for the FBI. I got to see some really cool X-RAYS and photos. To be honest, your average pistol round tends to make a hole. A rifle round when striking bone cause some really nasty wounds..I mean like really nasty.

Your average pistol cartridge, fired from a pistol are for the most part similar. There can be mitigating factors such as barriers, angle of attack and whatnot.

Overall, the energy differentials and how a given projectile works in flesh for such cartridges is marginal at best. Ballistic gelatin is a nice comparison between rounds for rate of energy transfer. However, gelatin does not show anything about a given cartridge's efficacy when encountering actual flesh. In addition BG will give no indication as to stopping probability. In many wounds, the majority of damage is due to secondary characteristics. For example, a pelvic girdle shoot with a 9mm fired from a short barreled pistol may not even crack bone. A 5.56 round fired at SD distance out of a carbine will not only crack bone, but can cause significant spalling of ossic material throughout surrounding tissue, and may we'll make a huge mess on exit (not from the bullet, but from bone fragments).

For pistol cartridges, when evaluating BG profiles, remember that gelatin is FAR more prone to tearing (this makes for pretty pictures manufacturers like to say simulate wound channels, hydrostatic and permanent cavities, and the like). Tissue is nothing like homogenous gelatin. Gelatin is a useful measure for comparing the differences in the energy between different loads, not the ability of a load/bullet profile to damage an area of tissue somewhere on a body the projectile happens to strike.

Pick a pistol caliber, cartridge and firearm you like and learn to shoot it. Just understand that you will not get rifle wound characteristics from a pistol of any common SD round. The trade off is size of firearm, ease of carry, cost of ammunition, and convenience to use.
 

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