Officers Kill Veteran

[Old Dog]

Boy, has this thread been derailed ... "Strategies, Tactics and Training?"

Learn to read,

Don't think he gave you any reason to be insulting.

I stated the cops strut around with their machine guns and body armor around airports and train stations for no reason other than to intimidate "the others", i.e. the civilians.

Only on the internet are people intimidated by cops in airports and train stations wearing body armor and carrying firearms. If you've ever done an informal survey at these airports and train stations, most citizens asked would actually state they felt reassured by the sight of these cops ...

Not only is gear being purchased with civil forfeiture funds, sometimes entire departments are funded by that method:

Your average law-abiding taxpayers are mostly happy with this arrangement ...

The law is often unjust (I call it the dictatorship of the legislature)

There's a revelation.

and it's because of sheeple like you there isn't a revolt against the state.

"Sheeple?" Usually used by a poster to denigrate someone with whom he disagrees ...

Government is exceptionally good at fooling people into supporting them, it's one of the few things it is good at (others include murder and theft).

Weird, isn't it? -- How "government" can become one entity, one being, capable of pulling the wool over the eyes of millions of citizens ... that collectively formed the government.

People who blame "government" for all the ills of society just haven't been paying attention.

 

[dmancornell]

I got what you said, it just doesn't make sense. Let's see... Legitimate reason- you mean safety? Like that? Maybe you haven't seen countries where there also is a terrorism threat. London, Israel, etc. Those guys walk around the body armor and guns.... lol....

LOL, safety. That's good. You mean you actually think that security theater has an actual effect on safety? You must think the TSA is doing a bang-up job too!

See people like you that are quick to blame others for a lack of action for their own inaction re-enforce the nuttiness of their thoughts. The real question which you still fail to answer is- if you believe the world is against you, what are you doing about it? Getting help I hope.

Well, I guess volunteering for Ron Paul and other libertarian candidates is kinda futile (especially in Portland), but only because the sheeple just don't care even when the government tramples all over them. But I do it anyways. What's your excuse for not caring about liberty?

 

[dmancornell]

Weird, isn't it? -- How "government" can become one entity, one being, capable of pulling the wool over the eyes of millions of citizens ... that collectively formed the government.

People who blame "government" for all the ills of society just haven't been paying attention.

I got some reading material for you, for starters:

The Law: Frederic Bastiat
Against Leviathan: Government Power and a Free Society: Robert Higgs
Lies the Government Told You: Myth, Power, and Deception in American History: Andrew P. Napolitano

 

[JohnWayne]

LOL, safety. That's good. You mean you actually think that security theater has an actual effect on safety? You must think the TSA is doing a bang-up job too!



Well, I guess volunteering for Ron Paul and other libertarian candidates is kinda futile (especially in Portland), but only because the sheeple just don't care even when the government tramples all over them. But I do it anyways. What's your excuse for not caring about liberty?

I was in the train station just before Christmas. I saw the extra officers. None had "machine guns" just in uniform carrying their duty gear- what's wrong with that?

No excuse, I do care for liberty. That's why I served in the military. How many years did you serve? I vote every time voting comes around. I don't vote party line but based on my morals. I carry in accordance with the laws. What am I missing?

 

[rsmccsman]

Boy, has this thread been derailed ...

+1

This is supposed to be a discussion about a police shooting of a man with a CHL and no criminal record and what we can learn from it. ie how not to get shot by the police while lawfully carrying concealed. It has somehow become a debate about "the new world order." and a bunch of insults back and forth. If you want to discuss if the government or the police are good or bad, start you own thread under the political section.

 

[JohnWayne]

If you want to discuss if the government or the police are good or bad, start you own thread under the political section.

I tried, it got locked

Anyway, my point was that it appears, again based only on statements and the news article, that this was a valid use of force. It appears that even the witnesses are going to corroborate the information.

 

[MountainBear]

What power tripping? Learn to read, I stated the cops strut around with their machine guns and body armor around airports and train stations for no reason other than to intimidate "the others", i.e. the civilians. Can you come up with another legitimate reason for them to do such a thing?

Yeah, extra security has nothing to do with the increased terrorist threat during the holidays. Even if it was just a threat not acted upon this year, remember the guy who tried to blow up a plane a year or two ago during the holidays (I think it was landing in Detroit). And honestly, I haven't seen any security in the Redmond airport with machine guns and flak vests since the month after the 9/11 tragedy. And at that time, as now, I was reassured to see them.

Not only is gear being purchased with civil forfeiture funds, sometimes entire departments are funded by that method:

Asset Forfeiture Report | The Institute for Justice
The Forfeiture Racket - Reason Magazine

The law is often unjust (I call it the dictatorship of the legislature) and it's because of sheeple like you there isn't a revolt against the state. Government is exceptionally good at fooling people into supporting them, it's one of the few things it is good at (others include murder and theft).

It would be interesting to see a scientific poll on this subject. Personally, I have no issue with PD's using funds from legally seized property to fund their departments.

As for your statement that people (or as you refer to us, sheeple) like us are the reason for a lack of revolt. There is a line in the sand. There always has been. For the colonials in the revolution, it was reached. For the Southern States in 1863, it was reached. It has come close several other times in our history. It seemed to be close during the Vietnam Conflict. It may very well be close now. But to denegrate those who have not reached that line simply because you have is wrong. Everyone has a tipping point. The point where they are no longer willing to accept the level of oppression that they are facing. Their reaction to that point may also be different than yours. We've seen lots of that recently. There was the gentleman who flew his plane into the IRS building. There have been terrorist attacks, both foreign and domestic. On the other hand, there has been new political movement, both liberal and conservative. All that I am trying to impress upon you is that just because there has not been an armed march on Washington D.C. does not mean that people are not unhappy nor are they necessarily unwilling to do anything about it. Be tolerant. People are different.

 

[DeathRattle]

Anyways, back to the subject at hand...

"I'd like to thank Sheriff Doug Gillespie and his "Tower" fix-it crew for disseminating yet another falsehood that's easily disproven. Every time those folks promulgate a new lie, Metro's credibility slips another few notches. Keep it up, guys!

Truth: My son, Erik, was shot seven times by Metro officers Mosher, Stark and Mendiola. Four, possibly five, of those shots were into Erik's back. That fifth round was in the armpit area, making it difficult to determine whether it was fired from the front or back. In any event, the wound virtually proves Erik had that hand up, above his head, when he took a round in the armpit.

Two of our team's investigators, a trauma specialist and a practicing physician, physically examined Erik's body on July 18th, carefully mapping the entry wounds on his chest and back. There were no exit wounds, thanks to the hollow-point, mushrooming rounds cops use in Vegas. Consequently, we have confirmed that my son was shot at least four times in the back, while he was lying on the ground, bleeding to death. The first shot, taken in the chest, killed Erik, but the three officers still considered that dying young man a threat. Incredible.
William B. Scott


Source: <broken link removed>

 

[rsmccsman]

Anyways, back to the subject at hand...

"I'd like to thank Sheriff Doug Gillespie and his "Tower" fix-it crew for disseminating yet another falsehood that's easily disproven. Every time those folks promulgate a new lie, Metro's credibility slips another few notches. Keep it up, guys!

Truth: My son, Erik, was shot seven times by Metro officers Mosher, Stark and Mendiola. Four, possibly five, of those shots were into Erik's back. That fifth round was in the armpit area, making it difficult to determine whether it was fired from the front or back. In any event, the wound virtually proves Erik had that hand up, above his head, when he took a round in the armpit.

Two of our team's investigators, a trauma specialist and a practicing physician, physically examined Erik's body on July 18th, carefully mapping the entry wounds on his chest and back. There were no exit wounds, thanks to the hollow-point, mushrooming rounds cops use in Vegas. Consequently, we have confirmed that my son was shot at least four times in the back, while he was lying on the ground, bleeding to death. The first shot, taken in the chest, killed Erik, but the three officers still considered that dying young man a threat. Incredible.
William B. Scott


Source: <broken link removed>

With a Metro shooting it is in for a penny, in for a pound. If one officer shoots, every body shoots and then figure out the rest later. Good job finding this Deathrattle. As a native of Las Vegas and someone who has done some training with LVMPD and has friends in that Dept it does not surprise me. No criminal charges for the officers but there will be a huge civil suit. Clark County Nevada Tax payers will have to pay to clean up Metros mess. This is a very tragic shooting. Hopefully lessons will be learned by both the police and the CHL holders.

 

[MountainBear]

Massad Ayoob has testified several times, and then written about it in his various columns in gun rags, that bodies can rotate when they get shot. Shots showing up in the back and the armpit prove nothing other than that he was shot multiple times and the body rotated while he was being shot. I understand the father's grief, but he's grasping at straws. I can't say though I blame him, but he's still grasping at straws. A Father's love and loyalty to a child is understandable...

 

[rsmccsman]

Massad Ayoob has testified several times, and then written about it in his various columns in gun rags, that bodies can rotate when they get shot. Shots showing up in the back and the armpit prove nothing other than that he was shot multiple times and the body rotated while he was being shot. I understand the father's grief, but he's grasping at straws. I can't say though I blame him, but he's still grasping at straws. A Father's love and loyalty to a child is understandable...

I didn't realize Massad Ayoob was a medical examiner or that he had anything to say about this particular shooting. I don't think it is right to take that generalization by Ayoob and apply it to the specifics of this case. We should not automatically judge the police as wrong, nor should we assume they are right but let the evidence decide.

The point being made was that his arm was not in the way of the armpit when shot entered the armpit. Therefore the arm had to be in the up position. The arm would not lift itself up out of the way after being shot because "bodies can rotate." Even so this does not explain the mysterious missing video from the Costco that was taken by Metro into evidence that would have shown both the events that led up to this and of the shooting itself.

In the movie the Big Easy when the video evidence against the dirty cop main character is erased his attorney states very sarcastically that "New Orleans is an amazing city for coincidence." Well one could say that Las Vegas is also an amazing city for coincidence. There is a name for such "coincidence" it is called obstruction of justice and if evidence was deliberately destroyed, it may protect these officers from criminal prosecution but a very large undisclosed settlement will likely happen in the next few years without the scrutiny of an embarrassing public trial to let the facts come to light in open court. I am not bashing the cops. I have lots of police friends including LVMPD. I would consider myself very pro law enforcement. I just think the same standards should apply. Police are not above the law. I have seen cases of Civilians prosecuted and sent to prison for legitimate self defense shootings where the shooter did everything by the book, while also seeing police shootings ruled as justified under circumstances that wouldn't stand up to the same scrutiny. Unfortunately politics sometimes plays a greater role in who gets prosecuted (both cops and civilians) more than what the evidence shows. Equal justice under the law means using the same standards, not bias for or against the police.

 

[Solo]

Ooo kayyy.
Lets put this in context.
I have,in the past worked with quite a few vets.
2nd world war,Viet Nam,grenada,and have friends that have been in the middle east.

The WW2 vets were,for the most part,still OK.Wouldn't hesitate to kill ya,if you needed it.
Not much drugs involved

Viet Nam vets? WAY phuck ered up. Drugs before,during,and after the war.Some would go off if you looked at them wrong
My old boss would go to a bar and beat the poopoo out of everyone in the bar,till a little guy stuck a knife in the back of his head.
Some still have problems from years of drugs and the shame of killing women and children.
Yes it was more common than you would like to believe

.

Wow! Thanks for telling me how phuck ered up I am. Idiot.

 

[Wheeler44]

Wow! Thanks for telling me how phuck ered up I am. Idiot.

Don't worry Solo..The poster doesn't get on NWFA until he's good and liquored up. Take it with a pinch of salt and a lick of lemon.

 

[JohnWayne]

Oh, that's his problem.... always wondered

 

[swoop]

Don't worry Solo..The poster doesn't get on NWFA until he's good and liquored up. Take it with a pinch of salt and a lick of lemon.

Reminds me of some of the C.S. hippies that spit on us and called us baby killers when we came back to the world. Myself, and most of the VN vets I know, came home, got married, bought houses, and have paid taxes for the past 45 yrs.

 

[Mosinman]

It sounds like this guy was once a good Joe that went bad. But remember he went bad.

If I was there I would have lit him up too. Moral of the story is that you don't screw around with the cops when you have a gun. This is an occupational hazard not covered by workmans comp. The COPs don't get paid to pansy waste around with idiots with guns.

Good job Officers!

As Sean Connery said in the movie "The Untouchables" Lesson one is for a cop go home at the end of the shift....end of lesson one."

 

[MountainBear]

I didn't realize Massad Ayoob was a medical examiner or that he had anything to say about this particular shooting. I don't think it is right to take that generalization by Ayoob and apply it to the specifics of this case. We should not automatically judge the police as wrong, nor should we assume they are right but let the evidence decide.

The point being made was that his arm was not in the way of the armpit when shot entered the armpit. Therefore the arm had to be in the up position. The arm would not lift itself up out of the way after being shot because "bodies can rotate." Even so this does not explain the mysterious missing video from the Costco that was taken by Metro into evidence that would have shown both the events that led up to this and of the shooting itself.

In the movie the Big Easy when the video evidence against the dirty cop main character is erased his attorney states very sarcastically that "New Orleans is an amazing city for coincidence." Well one could say that Las Vegas is also an amazing city for coincidence. There is a name for such "coincidence" it is called obstruction of justice and if evidence was deliberately destroyed, it may protect these officers from criminal prosecution but a very large undisclosed settlement will likely happen in the next few years without the scrutiny of an embarrassing public trial to let the facts come to light in open court. I am not bashing the cops. I have lots of police friends including LVMPD. I would consider myself very pro law enforcement. I just think the same standards should apply. Police are not above the law. I have seen cases of Civilians prosecuted and sent to prison for legitimate self defense shootings where the shooter did everything by the book, while also seeing police shootings ruled as justified under circumstances that wouldn't stand up to the same scrutiny. Unfortunately politics sometimes plays a greater role in who gets prosecuted (both cops and civilians) more than what the evidence shows. Equal justice under the law means using the same standards, not bias for or against the police.

I never said he was a medical examiner. But as a former police officer who's been involved in shootings, he has a certain amount of experience seeing the reaction of the human body when its shot.

There should not be a double standard. Police shootings should be held to standards as well. But it seems like there's enough reasonable doubt either way in the shoot that a criminal trial would have trouble of finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Perhaps in a civil suit, the guys father can win a judgement, but there doesn't seem to be enough evidence that they did or did not so something wrong.

So what do we do? Fire them without enough firm evidence that it was a bad shoot? If a civilian was convicted of a shoot that wasn't a clear cut bad shoot, wouldn't we also be crying foul. I've been held at gunpoint by an abuse of police power. And I don't blanket support the police. But I do support giving them the same benefit of the doubt.

 

[swoop]

It sounds like this guy was once a good Joe that went bad. But remember he went bad.

If I was there I would have lit him up too. Moral of the story is that you don't screw around with the cops when you have a gun. This is an occupational hazard not covered by workmans comp. The COPs don't get paid to pansy waste around with idiots with guns.

Good job Officers!

As Sean Connery said in the movie "The Untouchables" Lesson one is for a cop go home at the end of the shift....end of lesson one."

Who said the guy went bad? Some Costco punk clerk called 911 because the guys carry gun was showing. Looks to me like the cops shot, and asked questions later. Check the guys history...not the kind of man to pull a gun on a bunch of cops.

 

[Mosinman]

(titsonritz) Your name you use speaks loads.

I guess the black helicopter people, who believe they are taking pictures of their house, have taken over this thread. There must be a BIG conspiracy going on with this shooting....the BIG police over up.......in front of all those witnesses. We can't trust the Govt anymore. This is the type of craziness is what the liberals use to get new gun laws in. This is embarrassing

 

[rsmccsman]

It sounds like this guy was once a good Joe that went bad. But remember he went bad.

If I was there I would have lit him up too. Moral of the story is that you don't screw around with the cops when you have a gun. This is an occupational hazard not covered by workmans comp. The COPs don't get paid to pansy waste around with idiots with guns.

Good job Officers!

As Sean Connery said in the movie "The Untouchables" Lesson one is for a cop go home at the end of the shift....end of lesson one."

Mosinman I hope you are not a cop, if you are I am concerned how you passed your psych eval. If you are not remember if you are just an armed citizen like most on this forum then some Cop may think your an idiot with a gun too in which case you might want them to hesitate for a moment before they light you up too. Something to think about.

You jump to a lot of conclusions saying this Joe went bad. Metro issued him a CHL and 7 blue cards. (Clark County Nevada requires handguns to be registered and you have to carry proof its called a blue card.) Why would they issue a CHL and have a guy with top secret clearance pass numerous background checks if he was a good guy who went bad? It doesn't make sense to me.

I guess the black helicopter people, who believe they are taking pictures of their house, have taken over this thread. There must be a BIG conspiracy going on with this shooting....the BIG police over up…….in front of all those witnesses. We can't trust the Govt anymore. This is the type of craziness is what the liberals use to get new gun laws in. This is embarrassing

Another point to consider: After the LVMPD took the video equipment into "evidence" the part of the video showing what was happening inside the store that caused the clerk to call 911 prior to the shooting and at the entrance during and in the aftermath all was erased due to an "equipment malfunction." Coincidence? If it was your son would you accept this explanation and feel that justice was served? Should you simply dismiss this as out of the realm of possibilities?

I am sorry to say that LVMPD is not a squeaky clean organization. Remember we are talking about Vegas where a sleazy attorney to the Mob can become the Mayer. I am not aware of a single Metro shooting that has ever been ruled as bad by a coroners inquest in Vegas. If I am wrong I will humbly accept it. Now most of their shootings are in fact 100% righteous. Taditionally their problem was all the misses when they shoot reload, shoot reload, and shoot and 75% of the bullets missed their target. I think this has improved recently after some embarrassing incidents and better range training. I have trained with Metro and still have friends that work there. Their training is that if you see a gun then don't hesitate and wait so long that you get yourself or your partner killed.

Most of the time that works. However, police can make mistakes too. Discretion is the better part of valor and it is just as important to know when not to shoot as it is when to shoot. Also human nature is to cover up ones sins. I don't think it is so far fetched. I don't believe in aliens or wear tin foil and although I don't agree with everything our government does, it is still the best system in the world. Coverups happen. Nixon did it with Watergate and Clinton did it with Monica. I work with criminals and I pretty much expect them to lie to me to try to get out of trouble.

I am not telling anyone to quickly jump to conclusions, or automatically assume the cops are bad or good, or to make any generalization at all either way. But there is something fishy about video evidence disappearing. It should at least make us go Hmmm. I felt the same way after WACO when the FBI bulldozed the compound after the fire instead of treating it like a crime scene effectively destroying any evidence or chance for any meaningful investigation of what actually happened. If you think they didn't know what they were doing in Waco, remember this is the FBI, they wrote the book on crime scene investigation. They knew better.

If they did nothing wrong what did they have to fear? Why destroy evidence. Not exactly transparent government is it? Destroying evidence is called obstructing justice. The trouble is its nearly impossible to prove most of the time.

However, the main issue I think we should be concerned with on this thread is what can be learned. Whatever actually happened I am sure it was not a nice clean black and white issue, at either end of the spectrum such as he was "a bad guy threat with a gun, that needs to be shot right now no choice no hesitation end of story," nor is it a "good guy with a CHL minding his own business gets assassinated without cause or warning by the cops, what horrible evil cops." I am pretty sure the victim may have made some mistakes too probably some kind of sudden movement even if it was putting his hands in the air. He may have even got conflicting commands like one officer shouting "freeze" or "don't move" and another saying "show me your hands" or "hands up." If you do one, you violate the orders of the other which is a bad place to be stuck in.

What I believe (my opinion) is the most likely scenario of what happened based upon all the information I have come across is that all the police that showed up were jacked up on adrenaline from responding to a man with a gun call. One of the officers saw a gun, probably in the wasteband, and some movement from the suspect, like him raising his hands in the air. This officer did not have his finger out of the trigger guard and he puckered up and either overreacted /panicked and/or accidently squeezed the trigger. Doing so doesn't make him evil, or even a bad cop it makes him human. His fellow officers also jacked up on adrenaline also with their fingers on the triggers hearing the first gun shot also reactively pull the trigger and keep shooting like they have been trained to do through drill after drill at the range.

Think about this, if your fellow officer is shooting, but you don't see a threat, there is still a really good chance you will shoot too because you trust his judgment that he must see something you don't. There is also the peer pressure to fit in. Try being the only officer that didn't fire his gun and being the only one whose deposition says you didn't perceive a threat. Think how icy cold things would be at work if you made that statement. You would be called a coward and they would say you choked and froze and couldn't be counted on for back up, or worse they would call you a traitor. Now try being that officer and needing backup yourself. Ever hear of Serpico? His fellow officers just stood there and let him get shot in the face. Anyway I obviously can't prove any of this, it is just my best guess about what I think may have likely happened. I could be dead wrong too.

My main point is to neither condemn or praise the police or the veteran who was shot. But to help understand what can happen and can go wrong in the blink of an eye, and to learn the lessons from it, both as an armed citizen not wanting to be shot by the police, and for officers not wanting to shoot someone by mistake and having to live with that for the rest of their life.