OCW nodes of accuracy and other science

[WoodsPlinker]

Or is it ballistic witchcraft?

Anyway, a long while ago for long range shooting I got into making the tightest groups possible. I came across lots of literature about barrel harmonics and adjusting for the nodes of accuracy and adjusting etc to develop the optimal charge. (as well as getting the OAL perfect for each rifle)

It greatly helped tighten my groups at long range. And along the way I got to geek out over things like the quickload software and pouring over the website 6mmbr for hours.

My question is, have others come across literature pertaining to improving accuracy.(aside from the shooter)

Software besides quickload that you can geek out over? I wish I could even find the original site I spent days reading about that over but sady I couldn't...

6mmbr still exists:

AccurateShooter.com 6mmBR.com -- Best Guide to Precision Shooting and Precision Rifle Accuracy

Best site for precision rifle accuracy and accurate cartridge shooting. AccurateShooter.com 6mmBR.com has 223 243 308 6mm accuracy reloading data. Benchrest, Tactical, Varmint, High Power precision Shooting. Rifle accuracy tips. Scopes optics. Ballistics. Winchester Lapua brass. Match calendar...

www.6mmbr.com

Most everything I came across was word of mouth at the gun range leading me to web sites from random precision shooters.

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[DizzyJ]

No software to speak of. Making all of your cases and loaded cartridges as identical as possible, and being methodical in your loading procedures/technique is really the best way to ensure you get the best possible outcome. OCW is not necessarily finding the smallest group, but finding the center of the node so that temperature and other factors influence the poi and group size less. This also (as I'm sure you're aware) makes for better long range loads.

Playing with bullet seating depth will often help you shrink those groups after you've found the center of the node.

Those who hold gold medals for long range shooting have case prep down to a science. They also have a lot of money tied up in equipment used to create and verify the Ammo they use as well.

Then of course there's the nut behind the trigger. Most people (myself included) can gain the most by putting in more time behind the gun.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Nope, I guess I don't shoot long range enough to care, but damn if my 100 yard groups look good. With that being said, I gained the most knowledge back in the late 90's and early 2000's from reading magazines like Rifle shooter and handloader. They were going into great detail about how to gain the most out of your rifle in terms of ultimate accuracy. That's where it all begins, in the platform you are sending that bullet from. IF you don't have a good accurate rifle with a good accurate barrel, all else is nil. Null and void. I don't care how good, meticulous and marvelous you think your handloads are. They just aren't going to cut the mustard when it comes time to shine.... I start with the best platform right from the get go. I don't care if it's a Ruger m77, Winchester model 70, Rem 700, or a Tikka or Savage. Take that rifle/"platform" and fine tune the heck out of it. Make it a shooter. If you aren't doing that, you are building on sand for a foundation. Without that proper "foundation", you are sunk from the beginning... Does that make sense?



These loads were not developed from a chronograph. They didn't need to be. I see guys, even guys from here, working with their chrono's at the range and doing their "ladder tests" and they can't hit the broad side of the barn. One guy in particular had his buddy (who is also a newbie hand loader) telling him, "don't pay attention to the group size, we need to find the best SD and Es". Well let me tell you brother, if you are getting 5" patterns (I won't even call them groups at this point), your method to your madness is failing you. Guys need to go back to the basics and just learn how to properly develop a good accurate load, without all the electronic aids and accessories. Put in that trigger time you need, as that is what's going to do the best to help you in the long run. Learn to be meticulous about your hand loading, but also learn to work on your own guns and make them right, before you even pull the trigger. I don't know if this is making any sense to any of you guys, because often times I wonder if anyone really gets it...


Its not just about loads either. Check out how my CTR shoots 2 different hand loads from 2 of my other rifles:


I've never even shot these loads over my chrono... Just how I roll...

 

[WoodsPlinker]

Without that proper "foundation", you are sunk from the beginning... Does that make sense?

Yup, I did that as well, took a stock Remington 700 and dumped about 2 grand into it. The best decrease in group size was with the HS precision stock. My group size was close to the same, some days at 100 yards it was mostly through the same hole. At 200 yards it was the size of my fist. At 300 yards it was more like the size of a basket ball but, that could just be me.

I was more looking for information on BC and barrel harmonics to nerd out over or something other then quick load.

I love quick load, just wondering if anyone had come across anything different. Or websites other then 6mmbr that had good data on making the most out of accuracy.

 

[DizzyJ]

Here's one good precision loading reference I've used in the past: Metallic Cartridge Handloading: Pursuit of the Perfect Cartridge: Mic McPherson: 9781571573711: Amazon.com: Books

As well as these:

Amazon.com

Amazon.com

 

[Certaindeaf]

Make your own nodes with one a them rubber barrel donuts.

 

[DizzyJ]

What bsa1917hunter says is true about having a base platform that shoots well. You definitely have to have a good rifle to start with. Otherwise, you'll be pissing in the wind. I've gotten rid of rifles in the past that didn't cut the mustard.

You had mentioned long range in your original post, so I assumed you were wanting to stretch out and shoot a lot further than 100 yds. This is where it's critical to know and check your velocities and spreads. A load that shoots well at 100 yds doesn't always do so at 600 or beyond. This is because vertical stringing will become an issue with larger spreads in velocity.

Ask any of the f-class guys that compete at 600-1,000 yds and they'll tell you ES and SD matter.

 

[aklaunch]

Glen Zediker writes some very, very good books. Also Johny's reloading bench, on youtube is an excellent resource for watching a southern man experiment. I have learned a great deal from those two fellas.

Another classic is Sniper 101 on youtube. (Tiborsaurus Rex) If you can handle that much information it is the best of the best of the best.

 

[P7M13]

Web sites:
LongRangeHunting.com
Snipershide.com
Good advice here

Plenty of good magazine articles to be found on the web.

Trigger time - lots of it.

I'm still working on learning to read the wind.

In loading, I have concerned myself less with brass consistency (i.e. I don't weigh it), and more with a load that has proven itself to be accurate in my hands.
The first notion that died was that I needed to load for speed.
Then I stopped trying to load to the lands, and found a jump was good.
Then I went for consistent trigger, where I am surprised by the shot.
Cheek weld and muscle tension is always a work in progress.
Noted my accuracy went up significantly when I switched from shooting RH to LH.

@bsa1917hunter, I am of the opinion that there are few on NWFA who are accurate as you. There are a select bunch of marksmen here - but others just don't post their results.
I'd also put it that most production rifles are more accurate than the shooter. I would think the scope and mounting create a lot of inaccuracies for people. For example, gave my oldest a Marlin XL7 in 7-08, stuck a 1980's Simmons scope on it (made in Japan). Leveled the rifle, aligned the rings, and then the reticle to a plumb line. Then sighted it in. In her hands with factory ammo, it's a sub-MOA gun. In her partner's, same day same ammo, 2MOA.

 

[WoodsPlinker]

Glen Zediker writes some very, very good books. Also Johny's reloading bench, on youtube is an excellent resource for watching a southern man experiment. I have learned a great deal from those two fellas.

Another classic is Sniper 101 on youtube. (Tiborsaurus Rex) If you can handle that much information it is the best of the best of the best.

Johny's reloading bench is pretty good, I'll have to check the other ones out. (thanks for the info)

I noticed in the the reloading podcast that Johny's is showing up in there in the chat room. I'm still working through all the podcasts on firearms radio Network to see what's interesting enough to add to my podcast list.

Web sites:
LongRangeHunting.com
Snipershide.com
Good advice here

I learned a ton from snipers hide in the past, great advice on equipment and such.

Hadn't heard of long range hunting though, thanks for the link. Another forum I trolled and gained a lot of knowledge from is thehighroad.org. (mostly reloading tips)

 

[Dan Adams]

I recently visited a gun store where I was informed that my Ruger Precision Rifle was not capable of shooting tight groups, the pitch being that I really needed to buy their tricked-out rifle for $4000+ and make my own handloads. Well, let this photo argue differently:


I calculated this group at .307 MOA. The first three shots went into almost the same hole; tiny crescents from the second and third shots cut the edge of the first hole. Then I got excited, I guess, and blew the next two shots, low left and low right, though I called both of them, seeing my heartbeat move the crosshairs ever so slightly just as those shots went downrange. The dime more than covers the holes, including most of the torn-out edges. OK, so I wasn't able to get that good a group again that day, but it was my fault, not the rifle's.

 

[338]

This will give you something to think about, really need to be in the right place/mind to absorb it.

Using barrel vibrations to tune a barrel

 

[flashpan]

Having reloaded ammo since I was 15, I thought I was a seriously advanced handloader who knew most everthing about precision and accuracy. Then I started shooting with the 600yd and F class boys at TCGC and learned I din't know diddly. There is no substitute for getting first hand help from guys who shoot 1000yrd matchs on a national level. Come out to TCGC on Tuesday nites if you are serious about long range precision.

 

[DizzyJ]

Having reloaded ammo since I was 15, I thought I was a seriously advanced handloader who knew most everthing about precision and accuracy. Then I started shooting with the 600yd and F class boys at TCGC and learned I din't know diddly. There is no substitute for getting first hand help from guys who shoot 1000yrd matchs on a national level. Come out to TCGC on Tuesday nites if you are serious about long range precision.

Yep. Those that have been there and done that can help you get there a lot more quickly. There's a huge amount of experience from those guys, especially the ones who've taken home the gold. If you can find one willing to share their information, it's more than worth your time to buy them a drink and sit down and pick their brain.

 

[WoodsPlinker]

Come out to TCGC on Tuesday nites if you are serious about long range precision.

That is where I got into it to begin with. I think I ran into a few of those guys at the 100 yard range and they would give me tips here and there.

I dropped my membership when I moved, figured with being able to shoot in my back yard I didn't need the membership. I didn't realize there was more to the membership then just shooting. So yeah, I guess I regret it, but the distance to get there still would have sucked.

I find it fascinating, can't say I'd ever want to compete but, it's interesting.

 

[flashpan]

Good news...you dont have to be a member to shoot 600 and most all other disciplines at TCGC.

 

[MasterChief]

This will give you something to think about, really need to be in the right place/mind to absorb it.

Using barrel vibrations to tune a barrel

Thats some nerdy stuff....but worthwhile for anyone thinking about long range shooting..... dont forget over-tweaking the muzzle brake

 

[Whisky Tahoe]

That is where I got into it to begin with. I think I ran into a few of those guys at the 100 yard range and they would give me tips here and there.

I dropped my membership when I moved, figured with being able to shoot in my back yard I didn't need the membership. I didn't realize there was more to the membership then just shooting. So yeah, I guess I regret it, but the distance to get there still would have sucked.

I find it fascinating, can't say I'd ever want to compete but, it's interesting.

FYI, The TCGC Tuesday night 600 yard shoot is open to non members for $5 per night.

Goosebrown talked me into going back in June this year and I am hooked.
I completely understand the not wanting to compete part. Because this is a discipline, they follow match rules so scores are valid for competition however many people just work on their loads due to the electronic scoring or bring hunting rifles and only fire a few rounds.
22 minutes per relay with unlimited sighters. You don't have to submit a score. When crowded they run multiple relays to get everyone shooting. Recently 4 of the best shooters went to a match in New Mexico and came home with 26% of the medals. You would think these guys and gals would be unapproachable but they are the easiest to talk to. Open sharing makes this group better as a whole. Yes it is nerve wracking walking in the first time but soon you realize you do fit in.

 

[Whisky Tahoe]

Or is it ballistic witchcraft?
Anyway, a long while ago for long range shooting I got into making the tightest groups possible. I came across lots of literature about barrel harmonics and adjusting for the nodes of accuracy and adjusting etc to develop the optimal charge. (as well as getting the OAL perfect for each rifle)
It greatly helped tighten my groups at long range. And along the way I got to geek out over things like the quickload software and pouring over the website 6mmbr for hours.
My question is, have others come across literature pertaining to improving accuracy.(aside from the shooter)
Software besides quickload that you can geek out over? I wish I could even find the original site I spent days reading about that over but sady I couldn't...
6mmbr still exists:

AccurateShooter.com 6mmBR.com -- Best Guide to Precision Shooting and Precision Rifle Accuracy

Best site for precision rifle accuracy and accurate cartridge shooting. AccurateShooter.com 6mmBR.com has 223 243 308 6mm accuracy reloading data. Benchrest, Tactical, Varmint, High Power precision Shooting. Rifle accuracy tips. Scopes optics. Ballistics. Winchester Lapua brass. Match calendar...

www.6mmbr.com

Most everything I came across was word of mouth at the gun range leading me to web sites from random precision shooters.

Forum.accurateshooter.com

Regarding questions about OCW aka optimal charge weight. It is nothing more than a process for working up a safe and accurate load when you change variables like bullets, powders, primers, and even cases. Bullets that weight only 3 grains more can easily cause pressures to exceed what your rifle likes. The chamber is one important variable in determining pressure but not the only one. Powder Burn rate, Bullet weight, Primer, Case Volume, Temperature, all matter.

Since competition chambers are normally smaller than factory chambers as well as barrels are longer, published data tends to be conservative UNTIL IT ISN'T!!

You can read all about Dan Newberry's OCW method here: Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

OCW or any graduated process has a couple of goals.
1) Safely determine if a load is safe by observing pressure signs as charge is increased
2) Find loads that are accurate. This usually the main goal but remember Safety First!
3) Shoot as few rounds as possible to preserve premium match barrel life. Though fewer results in bigger steps

Rifle loads have NODEs where slight increases in powder don't result in more velocity.

Like finding a stud go for the middle. In the middle of a NODE, smaller variables as well as powder charge variances make less of an impact.

OCW steps are a percentage of overall charge. Steps start out really big and then get smaller as you near and exceed max listed powder aka pressure.

This is why I use this process. I want to know what is the max load in my rifle that is accurate and safe.

Nodes can appear and disappear as you increase powder. Lower powder nodes have slower velocity which can extend barrel life but may not be ideal in windy conditions like a faster node could be.

After you find a node, you can expand your testing to much smaller increments above and below your starting point. This is valuable for smaller variables like seating depth and temperature. The lands of your rifle are always moving away from the chamber and therefore your seating depth changes. If you are jamming, chances are you are also chasing the lands, ie increasing the length of the loaded cartridge "COAL" to match.

For a good read on seating, check out Berger's website for their process. It is eye opening.
VLDs are notoriously picky. Berger tells how to tame them.

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle.

bergerbullets.com

Note that Ladder testing can provide good results where you measure impact on a target at distance (say 300 yds) same elevation equates to a node. It is imperative you can accurately identify shots on paper as they were fired. People use colored markers to make this easier.

 

[P7M13]

Thank you both for the excellent links.
The application of polarization angle in the Kolbe article is interesting. I wonder why no one used an LVDT?
I also wonder why no one has watched horizontal vibration too - as evidence by experience: dialed in for one brand of ammo, and another consistently shoots 1" to the right (or so...).

This will give you something to think about, really need to be in the right place/mind to absorb it.

Using barrel vibrations to tune a barrel

Forum.accurateshooter.com

Regarding questions about OCW aka optimal charge weight. It is nothing more than a process for working up a safe and accurate load when you change variables like bullets, powders, primers, and even cases. Bullets that weight only 3 grains more can easily cause pressures to exceed what your rifle likes. The chamber is one important variable in determining pressure but not the only one. Powder Burn rate, Bullet weight, Primer, Case Volume, Temperature, all matter.

Since competition chambers are normally smaller than factory chambers as well as barrels are longer, published data tends to be conservative UNTIL IT ISN'T!!

You can read all about Dan Newberry's OCW method here: Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

OCW or any graduated process has a couple of goals.
1) Safely determine if a load is safe by observing pressure signs as charge is increased
2) Find loads that are accurate. This usually the main goal but remember Safety First!
3) Shoot as few rounds as possible to preserve premium match barrel life. Though fewer results in bigger steps

Rifle loads have NODEs where slight increases in powder don't result in more velocity.

Like finding a stud go for the middle. In the middle of a NODE, smaller variables as well as powder charge variances make less of an impact.

OCW steps are a percentage of overall charge. Steps start out really big and then get smaller as you near and exceed max listed powder aka pressure.

This is why I use this process. I want to know what is the max load in my rifle that is accurate and safe.

Nodes can appear and disappear as you increase powder. Lower powder nodes have slower velocity which can extend barrel life but may not be ideal in windy conditions like a faster node could be.

After you find a node, you can expand your testing to much smaller increments above and below your starting point. This is valuable for smaller variables like seating depth and temperature. The lands of your rifle are always moving away from the chamber and therefore your seating depth changes. If you are jamming, chances are you are also chasing the lands, ie increasing the length of the loaded cartridge "COAL" to match.

For a good read on seating, check out Berger's website for their process. It is eye opening.
VLDs are notoriously picky. Berger tells how to tame them.

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle.

bergerbullets.com

Note that Ladder testing can provide good results where you measure impact on a target at distance (say 300 yds) same elevation equates to a node. It is imperative you can accurately identify shots on paper as they were fired. People use colored markers to make this easier.